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Old 08-18-2012, 08:52 PM
 
18,069 posts, read 18,803,581 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth-Kaunda View Post
but too much choice is a bad thing, right?

It's all about status and pecking order - encouraged by capitalist avarice.

so we can see that capitalism promotes greed even at an early age.

this is bad IMO.
No, it is a natural human trait, thus why communist societies end up being autocratic regimes that suppress the population; it is against human nature.

I ask you, why should I not allowed to have choices? And why should I not be allowed to pursue my entrepreneurial talents to provide choices?

To suppress this choice and freedom, you need a brutal government to do so.

True communism will never work due to human nature; self described communist states never work, always has had to suppress the population for it to linger on, still had a pecking order for the few, and goes against natural human tendencies described by Smith, and liberty described by Locke.
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus View Post
No, it is a natural human trait, thus why communist societies end up being autocratic regimes that suppress the population; it is against human nature.

I ask you, why should I not allowed to have choices? And why should I not be allowed to pursue my entrepreneurial talents to provide choices?

To suppress this choice and freedom, you need a brutal government to do so.

True communism will never work due to human nature; self described communist states never work, always has had to suppress the population for it to linger on, still had a pecking order for the few, and goes against natural human tendencies described by Smith, and liberty described by Locke.
If we used the standard of Liberty described by John Locke we would never have the absentee ownership of land and natural resources. He said ownership belongs in the hands of the creator. We don't follow that at all.

Rape, robbery and taking a dump in public is also human nature. We stop harmful human nature with socialization.

You need to do much more than casually discard Marxism with an aphorism, especially as I keep pointing out, we are ~half Marxist already.

Capitalism also reaches a state contrary to human nature. The fatal flaw of capitalism is the expectation that geometric expansion lasts indefinitely. Speaking of human nature, it is human nature to fall for it every time. Capital is a short lived tactical advantage. If it fails to gain strategic resources it will die. Eventually the strategic resources will be so great, few tactical advantages will overcome it. Then we reach a state of master vs slave relationships where one class works while the other consumes.


Which capitalist society has survived over the long run? Marxism is a reaction to its failure. Marxist revolutions are just old fashion slave revolts but with a different flavor of moral philosophy. Marxism is capitalism. To make capitalism work again you have to destroy unearned value so that there are no strategic resources. Marxism is a fine system of destroying value. Once its all ashes the only think that can produce value is work, and all who wish to rent things out for a living will perish. Then everyone will sing the praises of capitalism again just as people begin to drop their shovels again to rent out the strategic resources.
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Ohio
3,437 posts, read 6,072,515 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth-Kaunda View Post
I'd still hardly call this a necessity.

One can always get used to one of the 3 brands or just make do without.

do you think our ancestors really cared all that much if they had to go without such choices - unlikely.

It seems that the excess of choice creates artificial wants and ego-puffing.

We can all easily make do without.
Wow, a couple generations ago people did with out TV, before that, without radio ...

Not too long ago people had an "ice-box" and before that no food that required refrigeration was kept.

Like the nice comfortable house? Not too long ago there was no central heating or cooling, in the winter you chopped wood or used coal and in the summer, you, well, dealt with it.

Electricity is a relatively modern convenience too.

Not too long ago you used a horse to get around, or you walked.

People in the past "made do" without all our modern niceties.


You want to go back to life like that? There are many places in the world where none of it is available.
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Old 08-19-2012, 08:56 PM
 
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capitalism also leads to war - ie: WW1 and arguably WW2.

so it seems that capitalism burns itself out in this way, only to be taken over by Marxism and then capitalism again once people start getting greedy again - what is to stop this cycle?

we can now see how capitalism is beginning to burn itself out again with the great inequalities we now see - this has a lot to with with the decline of the SU and its corresponding counter-balance.

we need the duality of ideologies again
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Old 08-19-2012, 11:36 PM
 
3,697 posts, read 4,994,276 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth-Kaunda View Post
capitalism also leads to war - ie: WW1 and arguably WW2.

so it seems that capitalism burns itself out in this way, only to be taken over by Marxism and then capitalism again once people start getting greedy again - what is to stop this cycle?

we can now see how capitalism is beginning to burn itself out again with the great inequalities we now see - this has a lot to with with the decline of the SU and its corresponding counter-balance.

we need the duality of ideologies again
You don't know much US history or British history. WWI brittian had a great expansion of worker's rights as the government gave into strikes to keep the war going.

In the US the period before WW2 mark a great expansion of worker's rights with mininum wage, child labor bans, some safety improvements, the right to unionize and so on.
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Old 08-20-2012, 12:28 AM
 
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I am saying capitalism (the Imperial kind) led to WW1 - workers right in Britain during the war happened too late.

and the things you mentioned about WW2 were only minor improvements within a capitalist context, and now you can see many of those rights being eroded away.
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Old 08-20-2012, 02:08 AM
 
Location: Lincoln, CA
505 posts, read 1,664,039 times
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The fundamentals of communism is a good idea - communism = community. I help you, you help me back. We share our money, our clothes, our fish, our seeds. We work equally as hard and help each other out. . . a community.

The only reason it doesn't work comes down to one word. . . greed.

Though the idea is great and it may have worked when we were all cavemen or when everyone lived in straw huts and hunted with spears. But I don't want to make up for the nephew who wants to smoke pot all day, or the neighbor that has 6 kids from 4 different boyfriends. Why should I share my hard earned hunt or this season's crops that my family worked our butts off for?
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Old 08-20-2012, 02:48 AM
 
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well, I don't think you'd have to do that exactly.

in a community system we can have wages for those who work (of varying levels) and perhaps the most basic subsistence for those who do not.

so there would and could be a clear incentive to work.
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Old 08-20-2012, 03:43 AM
 
Location: Lincoln, CA
505 posts, read 1,664,039 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth-Kaunda View Post
well, I don't think you'd have to do that exactly.

in a community system we can have wages for those who work (of varying levels) and perhaps the most basic subsistence for those who do not.

so there would and could be a clear incentive to work.
Isn't that capitalism? You work. You get paid. You don't work, you don't get paid.

I know what you're trying to say, but to further your point. . . so who's going to be the "guy" or "guys" that are going to determine the wages? And do we get to vote for these "guys"? Because history shows that Communist countries tend to have rampant corruption and bribery and the people in politics tend to become millionaires while the average worker struggle to get by.
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Old 08-20-2012, 10:26 AM
 
3,697 posts, read 4,994,276 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth-Kaunda View Post
well, I don't think you'd have to do that exactly.

in a community system we can have wages for those who work (of varying levels) and perhaps the most basic subsistence for those who do not.

so there would and could be a clear incentive to work.
In the US we have unemployement for people who have lost their jobs(and are looking for new work), we have Socail Security(for the disabled and elderly). We have welfare for people who have lots of children but not enough income(or who's income falls bellow poverty level). I think we could add more and do more, but basic subsustence for not working just isn't going to work. It would be wasteful and encourage not working.
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