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Old 11-07-2012, 03:34 PM
 
Location: 3rd Rock fts
748 posts, read 999,941 times
Reputation: 304

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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpasa
Another relevant Steve Jobs comment was that they have so many engineers in China that help out in the factories. He implied that it's hard to find engineers in America,...
What Steve Jobs was trying to say is driftwood-employees' are costly in the USA. A Chinese engineer will utilize downtown by looking for work/ideas on the shop floor; an American engineer’s utilization of downtown is to go on Home Depot’s website & order shrubs for his front yard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpasa
One day Jobs decided he wanted to make an Ipod with a really nice aluminum case so he opened a factory in China for just that. I wonder if he even considered opening it in America.
He did consider it, but the American company wanted 35% of the profits & free airline tickets for all their employees.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GreggT
There are several reasons other than the labor costs. One thing is a lack of regulations mainly environmental, in my years working off shore I have seen water discharge that flowed into lakes, rivers, and ponds that not only could you "walk on water" but you better not light a match even close. Instead of getting all the necessary licenses and permits, off shore in most cases all a company has to do is grease the appropriate politicians and they can proceed.

The developed countries should have demanded swift, incremental compliance to environmental policies WORLDWIDE. The problem with that is US companies (Apple especially) would have to abide by them.

Last edited by DSOs; 11-07-2012 at 03:35 PM.. Reason: underlined text
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Old 11-07-2012, 03:54 PM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,588,423 times
Reputation: 5180
The answer is just the same as it has always been. Tariffs.
Tariffs have been used for thousands of years to protect domestic markets because they work.
Tariffs protect workers and keep wages higher.
Tariffs were used from the beginning of this country until the adoption of Free trade agreements.
That was when Ross Perot was asking people if they could hear that sucking sound, the sound of their jobs being sucked right out of the country in order to make Wall St richer.
The other thing outsourcing did was to create the big box store and eliminate an entire class of American business men known as the mom and pop proprietor.
The result is a vacuum for the blue collar class in this country that has driven them for the most part below the poverty line and caused programs like food stamps to skyrocket.
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Old 11-07-2012, 04:43 PM
Status: "Trump - excepting Jorgensen, the least of multiple evils" (set 18 days ago)
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna. (birthplace)
13,826 posts, read 8,489,900 times
Reputation: 17900
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpasa View Post
Steve Jobs commented that it's really easy to open a factory in China, but it's really hard to open a factory in America.

Offshoring/outsourcing has been a huge problem for at least 20 years, but what can be done to encourage American companies to keep their factories inside the US?
Not much. We learned last night that economic idiocy is more popular than hard truth.

Nothing to do right now but wait for the chickens to come home to roost. And when that happens, the Lefties will start the mantra:

George Bush, rich Republicans, George Bush ......

Beauty is only skin deed .... but stupid goes clean through to the bone.
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Old 11-07-2012, 04:45 PM
Status: "Trump - excepting Jorgensen, the least of multiple evils" (set 18 days ago)
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna. (birthplace)
13,826 posts, read 8,489,900 times
Reputation: 17900
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
The answer is just the same as it has always been. Tariffs.
Tariffs have been used for thousands of years to protect domestic markets because they work.
Tariffs protect workers and keep wages higher.
Tariffs were used from the beginning of this country until the adoption of Free trade agreements.
That was when Ross Perot was asking people if they could hear that sucking sound, the sound of their jobs being sucked right out of the country in order to make Wall St richer.
The other thing outsourcing did was to create the big box store and eliminate an entire class of American business men known as the mom and pop proprietor.
The result is a vacuum for the blue collar class in this country that has driven them for the most part below the poverty line and caused programs like food stamps to skyrocket.
1929 - stock market crash -- not much trouble on Main Street
1930 - Smoot-Hawley tariff
1931 - second meltdown; much worse

be afraid; be very afraid
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Old 11-07-2012, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Fort Payne Alabama
1,685 posts, read 1,875,492 times
Reputation: 3198
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
Not much. We learned last night that economic idiocy is more popular than hard truth.

Nothing to do right now but wait for the chickens to come home to roost. And when that happens, the Lefties will start the mantra:

George Bush, rich Republicans, George Bush ......

Beauty is only skin deed .... but stupid goes clean through to the bone.
What has this got to do with the original question about off-shoring? (other than just another political rant)
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Old 11-07-2012, 05:03 PM
 
9,995 posts, read 16,959,529 times
Reputation: 17027
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Aside from selfishness, what motivates you to want all high-paying jobs in the world to be reserved for Americans?

Ummm....is there something wrong with being selfish
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Old 11-07-2012, 05:17 PM
 
24,497 posts, read 37,136,692 times
Reputation: 12872
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpasa View Post
Outsourcing does save money for America's companies but it dries up the economy.
Why throw all of outsourcing under the bus? There's more indication that outsourcing, overall, greatly benefits the economy than hurts it.
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Old 11-07-2012, 05:45 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
17,344 posts, read 16,067,343 times
Reputation: 17203
Quote:
Originally Posted by bxlefty23 View Post
It's not bending the rules
If someone isnt qualified to generate much more than 9 dollars an hour for their employer regardless of how hard they work then they arent worth more than 9 dollars an hour. If they didnt work hard then they would be worth even less. Jobs used to be more plentiful for them in the past but you can't live in the past forever.People and companies who don't adapt to a changing world get left in the dust.
First off, a worker making $9/hr and generating $9/hr for their employer is a real loser on the balance sheet since the employer is probably paying more like $18/hr with taxes. Considerably more with benefits. Irregardless, my question is, what is supposed to happen with them? Why is a balanced economy where there is a place for them too a bad thing? Without that, you need some sort of a socialist state to keep them off the street and fed. That means the more capable workers will see much of their income evaporate to support the less skilled... Guess what kind of effect that will have... I'd suggest it's better we have that $9/hr working and paying some of that COL themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bxlefty23 View Post
Some jobs for the most part are purely based on hard work- the problem for people who need those jobs is anyone can do them and they are easily replaceable so they arent worth much.
What about it. Those jobs have existed for 1000's of years. Do you think they have all of the sudden gone away? Of course not. Many have just gone overseas. So... What happens to the worker who would have traditionally occupied these jobs? They still have to eat.

Not too long ago, a worker would start off doing that crappy job, and if the boss thought they were a good worker, they would train them to do a better paying job. That's how people literally picked themselves up by their bootstraps. Nothing wrong with an honest days work, especially when it can potentially lead to something better. These days, plenty of immigrants come to this country and achieve success in this manner. The problem is, the American worker refuses to start out this way as they feel they are above this path.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bxlefty23 View Post
If you were an employer who would you want to hire or pay more:


Employee 1 who works is ass off, but is stupid, constantly makes mistakes, is inefficient, without the mental capacity to improve and generates 10 dollars an hour in profit for you or Employee 2 who doesnt work as hard, but is very smart, never makes mistakes, is very efficient, learns quickly and generates 50 dollars an hour in profit for you?

I would pay them what they are worth. You still need someone to sweep the floor. I would hire the no skilled worker an pay them $8 or $9/hr. If they are capable and have a good work ethic, I will teach them some skills so they can do other work. You can't make money without a skilled worker. They have to start somewhere and someone has to teach them.

Employee 1 will sweep floors until they decide to step their game up. If they show up everyday and work hard, they can make me good money if they apply themselves and learn something beyond a no skilled job. Lot's of young kids start off as employee 1.

Employee 2 won't be making $50/hr for me because the competition has a worker who can do the same job, but actually puts some effort into it. They can sell their goods/services for a better rate and the customer will be buying from them, not me. Depending on what I am paying employee 2, I might be losing money by paying the market rate for the job, but getting someone who isn't a quality worker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bxlefty23 View Post
As far as jobs like engineers go
Part of it is the cost of living and education is cheaper in places like Chine and part of it is on a whole they are far more educated than students over here not even counting college. Its a totally different culture over there.
Yes, so they can afford to work cheaper. Just like the no skilled workers in China can work cheaper than our no skilled workers. According to the free market, everyone is effected, including skilled/educated workers. You still have not given any indication of why that should no be the case according to the principles of free market economics. So we should only protect our skilled and educated workforce, and throw everyone else under the bus? I'd suggest you tackle the problem as a whole. If you're not going to protect the $9/hr worker, than the skilled workers will see their taxes spent supporting that unemployable no skilled worker. At that point, what is the point of investing the time, energy and $$$ becoming a skilled worker when you can achieve the same socioeconomic status by doing nothing at all???

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpasa View Post
Are you saying workers in China or Latin countries are more like Emp2 but Americans are more like Emp1?
I didn't want racial stereotypes to enter this but it does.

I heard an American construction manager saying workers from Latin America (including some who are undocumented) work very hard with no complaints. But he also hired an American kid to sweep the streets and the kid complained that the work was boring.
I was once that American kid doing a crappy job along side a bunch of illegals. I learned to do the work they could not. Now I make a decent income and they clean up after me. The problem is the only kid willing to start on the bottom at a job like that is that whiny kid who lacks a work ethic. There is still plenty of opportunity in more humble professions, but American kids feel they are above that work. The economy suggests otherwise.

Hopefully, we can keep race and ethnicity out of this. Every country has smart kids, stupid kids, hard working kids and lazy kids. The difference here is the hard working and smart kids know there is more money to be made flipping stocks or becoming a lawyer than many of the professions immigrants take. Hence, the American kid who take these jobs are often not the hardest working or sharpest. Doesn't mean you can't make a living doing the work, but there is opportunity for a better living elsewhere.


Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpasa View Post
People constantly make jokes about shoddy products at Walmart made in China. And yet Steve Jobs kept opening plants in China. Believe me, Steve Jobs is not a person who cut corners.
China does a lot of the assembly work. I would ask... Where is the actual brain work done? Making the components, and everything involved in making that happen is quite a bit different than assembling the work.

China got really good at taking low skill level work. Profit margins used to be quite fat on that type of work prior, but now it's pennies on the dollar. That paradigm has faced some challenge as of late however. When consumers aren't buying businesses don't want to overproduce, especially when they are taxed on inventory. This has brought a lot of work back to the states, where widgets can be produced to match current market demands, instead of blindly mass produced.




Quote:
Originally Posted by DSOs View Post
What Steve Jobs was trying to say is driftwood-employees' are costly in the USA. A Chinese engineer will utilize downtown by looking for work/ideas on the shop floor; an American engineer’s utilization of downtown is to go on Home Depot’s website & order shrubs for his front yard.
And you're suggesting an American worker is not capable of doing the same? When I started as an apprentice, the first thing we were taught was to maximize our time. If a machine is running and can be left unattended, grab a broom, clean a machine, mop the floor, make a pot of coffee... Do something! After we progressed in skill, we would run multiple machines, do quality control, make tools and fixtures for new jobs, all simultaneously. We were taught to be as productive as possible, as the profitability (and the size of our paychecks) depended on it. Unfortunately, in many cases, there is no competition when your competition works for $3/hr, has no EPA, has no workers rights... That is why America can't compete, not because we are lazy or stupid. It's because of the quality of life we enjoy.

An frankly, I'd like to know how thin you can stretch an engineer. They have to be completely focused on what they are doing. One mistake could cost big $$$. It's more profitable to have them do everything correctly than trying to squeeze everything out of them. Sounds like a case of penny wise, pound foolish in China, especially for work that could cost lives.

Americans are capable of working just as hard as anyone else. By comparison, we have shorter vacations and work longer hours than plenty of industrialized nations in Europe. This has always been a nation driven by our strong work ethic and pride for a job well done. The problem is not the people, at least in many cases. It's the COL and wage difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSOs View Post
The developed countries should have demanded swift, incremental compliance to environmental policies WORLDWIDE. The problem with that is US companies (Apple especially) would have to abide by them.
Perhaps the answer is to investigate how foreign components are produced, and evaluate the cost to the environment. After all, we all inhabit this planet, and these companies want access to our market. After the analysis is complete, TAX THEM. That might level the playing field to some extent. Trust me, Apple can afford to pay


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
The answer is just the same as it has always been. Tariffs.
Tariffs have been used for thousands of years to protect domestic markets because they work.
Tariffs protect workers and keep wages higher.
Tariffs were used from the beginning of this country until the adoption of Free trade agreements.
That was when Ross Perot was asking people if they could hear that sucking sound, the sound of their jobs being sucked right out of the country in order to make Wall St richer.
The other thing outsourcing did was to create the big box store and eliminate an entire class of American business men known as the mom and pop proprietor.
The result is a vacuum for the blue collar class in this country that has driven them for the most part below the poverty line and caused programs like food stamps to skyrocket.
I've mostly worked for small "mom and pop" shops. I've also worked for a couple large corporations. The differences are immense. I'll list a few here...

Small shops can't afford too many people, so they hire a few people who can do many things. These are skilled workers who can do one job, than move on to another job that is completely different, and so on. This type of worker is sharper, more flexible, quicker to adapt and learn, more skilled, and most important BETTER PAID. This worker is paying taxes at the end of the year guaranteed. Bigger shop? Well, you get the McDonald's effect. The job is dumbed down to the point that a monkey could do the it, because after all, you can find anyone to do that job. That worker is sucking up tax payer subsidies to make ends meet.

Small shop has pride in their work, and is very competent in what they do. They have to be, because after all, they have to charge more to make ends meet and afford better paid workers. They have to provide some incentive to charge that higher price. Big shop doesn't care if the work is garbage. Their prices are so low, they have lines of customers waiting to buy. You take a hike if you got a problem. They make their money on bulk and and value, not quality. Never seen quality work come out of a shop like this.

Small shop is training workers to meet their labor needs. High quality workers aren't a dime a dozen. Skilled and high quality workers, now there is a combination especially difficult to find. Find the right one young, invest in them, and grow the skills you need. Big shops... Well, they've found ways to allow cheap labor to be productive, but they haven't completely eliminated the need for highly skilled workers for some roles. Since they pay so little, they can afford to steal the workers they need, but they refuse to grow the skills they need. Quality workers don't take $8/hr no skill jobs, so their potential trainable pool is rather limited anyways.

Smaller shops tend to treat their workers much better. Almost like a family... They intend to keep their workers happy so they don't sell their time down the street. Big shop doesn't care. Their jobs are so low skilled, they can find any idiot off the street to do the work. I've seen alcoholics and drug addicts do these jobs. Who cares if they aren't happy? Enjoy your food stamps, and if you ask for a raise, you're gone.

Where the big corporations have made their money... Dumb down the work so you can reduce your prices, and skim off the top if possible. Automation and technology plays a big role in this too. When people whine about China stealing jobs, they completely overlook the robot that just eliminated 100 workers. When work from China comes back that took 100 workers, it's usually because 1 worker and an automated machine can can achieve the same level of productivity. Skilled workers are not needed nearly as much as before, yet the reward does not go into that worker's paycheck. It goes to the customer getting a better value, and the corporation. Go ahead and reshore every manufacturing job... You'll never employee 25% of the working population manufacturing however...

At any rate, the problem I see. Big companies make their money by paying less, selling more for less, and selling huge quantities. Their workers pay is subsidies by the dwindling tax paying base. Tax holidays for large corporations is absolutely undeserved. Small companies make their money by selling smaller quantities of higher quality goods and services. If you're going to have an economy driven by large companies, you will have a country filled with lower paid workers. If you want a first world standard of living, you need to have an economy driven by companies providing higher quality goods/services which pay better wages to attract the capable workers. This is why many European countries like Germany have a better standard of living, and a more solid and balanced economy. Prosperity is not legislated, it is earned. We can manufacture high quality products, but that requires a more educated, skilled and passionate workforce. Many problems and roadblocks there admittedly...
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Old 11-07-2012, 05:48 PM
 
2,538 posts, read 4,223,087 times
Reputation: 3344
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryleeII View Post
Ummm....is there something wrong with being selfish
It is if you're a mostly white, wealthy country. Every other country on the planet takes measures to protect their economy, either from outside sources or outsiders coming in. But in western countries this is considered "racist" and not being a good global citizens. Go try and get a work visa in India. Good luck. They might let you work there for a few months, but only if it is to help setup shop for local employees. Same goes with China and just about any other country in the so called developing world. The stupidity of Americans will not be fully realized until there is nothing left but a wasteland. Those that are left will sit around wondering "how did this happen....".
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:47 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
17,344 posts, read 16,067,343 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
Why throw all of outsourcing under the bus? There's more indication that outsourcing, overall, greatly benefits the economy than hurts it.
Very true. The problem is, we have not found a way to tap into the benefit. China takes our low skilled work and produces products cheaper for us to buy. Of course, they must buy machinery, tools, and many other things which requires a higher skilled, better paid workforce. Germany is closer, so they have been the main beneficiary of this. Problem for China is this is not sustainable. Since North America and Europe is not buying nearly as much as before the recession, largely due to the lack of decent paying production jobs which China took, China does not have as strong of a consumer base to buy their cheap products.

As I've often said, a country can only consume relative to what they produce. Australia can consume cheap Chinese products because they provide the commodities necessary for production. Germany can consume because they run a trade surplus providing manufactured goods necessary for production, as well a expensive quality goods. That doesn't make up for the woes in Europe abroad and America. The model enjoyed for the past couple decades might be changing, and it's going to hit China especially hard.

So, there are benefits, but there are also possible problems and roadblocks which must be acknowledged.
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