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Old 11-08-2012, 12:50 PM
 
102 posts, read 130,286 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willy702 View Post
Paying someone $9 to do something another person can do for $2 is just burning value.
What an utterly ridiculous statement. Someone is paid 9 vs 2 is because of the cost of living, not the value of the job. Gee whiz, get a clue.
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Old 11-08-2012, 01:40 PM
Status: "Trump - excepting Jorgensen, the least of multiple evils" (set 29 days ago)
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna. (birthplace)
13,877 posts, read 8,511,787 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IanBeano View Post
What an utterly ridiculous statement. Someone is paid 9 vs 2 is because of the cost of living, not the value of the job. Gee whiz, get a clue.
Not exactly; in a free society, no one is compelled to work, and no one is compelled to hire. We seek what our own skills will bring us, and decide, in the process and within the limitations set via human interaction, what particular working conditions suit our mode of living. How we plan for the day when we can't, or simply no longer want to work, falls partially into the areana of politics/statecraft, but only up to what we decide we can afford via the democratic/parliamentary process.

My employer is non-union; the nature of its operation makes it relatively easy to move its facilities if the local political and union pressure becomes a negative, so its likely to stay that way. To meet the expectations of a work force that knows the cost of living rises constantly, base pay is pegged to an impartial report from the Labor Department on local wage rates. It is a certain percentage above the median, because it's acknowledged that ours is a high-demand environment. Most jobs on the first or second rung above entry-level get a uniform differential.

Beyond that point, everything is subject to negotiation between individual principals. You can seek more, but you'ld better demonstrate that you have something to sell; if you seek more autonomy; or "the system" seeks more control -- it becomes a game of give-and-take.

The American wage structure is under global pressure simply because we are no longer the only player, or even one of a small number, with an intact industrial plant. Our costs are also higher, in part both because of our thicker "safety net" -- but as demonstrated by Tuesday's election, that we are unwilling to restrict the desires of a substantial portion of population to try to avoid the lower-rung existence via abuse of social programs, frivolous lawsuits, illegal and harmful econonic activity such as hard drugs, etc.

And a "benign underground economy" sometimes develops where the cost of playing "by the book" is too high.

As the situation continues to deteriorate, the "usual suspects" will call for "protection" for their corrupted and inefficient version of enterprise via tariffs, offshoring restrictions, etc. But that's just going to encourage everyone outside the control of America's resident grafters to take their business elesewhere.

We asked for it, and some more of the chickens are about to come home to roost.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 11-08-2012 at 02:21 PM..
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Old 11-08-2012, 04:38 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
17,424 posts, read 16,107,470 times
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What everyone continues to ignore... If we bring all these jobs back, most will be automated to some extent. It will not generate the job growth expected. Manufacturing jobs today produce more output and more wealth per worker then ever. One worker today can produce the same amount that it would have taken an army of workers to produce 30 years ago. There's why so many of your manufacturing jobs has disappeared. Other arguments are based heavily on fear mongering and political rambling.

As a side note, there actually are plenty of jobs available in the manufacturing sector today. Nobody is really interested in learning a trade, and most of the schools have shut down their trade programs. Employers are looking, but they are not finding. I showed up in Chicago last year after being invited for some factory tours. I had a job offer that day. Not many professionals can say that in this economy, but manufacturing is alive and well. Even with first world labor costs. Again, automation has made labor costs a less significant part of the equation. It also requires a very knowledgeable workforce who can learn new technology and new methods of getting the job done. Much is still the same, except workers are manipulating modern day computer controlled equipment instead of rickety old machines. Old school knowledge fused with hi tech processes.

What many also fail to acknowledge... When you talk about gaining all these fancy skills and knowledge, that's exactly what factory workers had to do to adapt to the changing times. The modern day factory rat is part engineer, part technician, and add to that a pinch of elbow grease and work ethic... This stuff is acquired on the factory floor, not in a classroom. Wanna talk about knowledge and skills? I'll loan you my copy of Machinery's handbook, with it's 2000+ pages of knowledge. Again, this is stuff not taught in the classroom. This is the stuff that is keeping manufacturing jobs and businesses in this country though. When we have the skilled workforce available to do the job better than anyone else, we do just fine without people worrying about globalization. That is killing IT and rudimentary office jobs, not high skilled, hi tech manufacturing jobs. China has a long ways to go yet on that, and by the time they catch up, their wages will be much higher, and they will have sucked this country dry. I'm more worried about unsteady and fragile demand for manufactured goods.

Please be aware... Manufacturing has done incredibly well over the past 5 years, except during the very bottom of the recession. Most manufacturers that remained competitive are seeing some of the busiest and most profitable years ever.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpus7 View Post
.
Foreign people of other countries are willing to work and do there job ! ! !

Today's American people are to lazy to work. The quality of American production
is not as good, and their employes want more money than they are worth ! ! !

American companies are not very completive in the market place,
and they have priced theirself out of business ! ! !

Also people do not buy products direct from China, or any other country .

They only buy ( freely ) from the middle man companies like Wal-Mart etc.

No one forces you to buy from them ! ! !

Stop complaning and ...
Start your own American company, and run them out of business if you can ! ! !
.
As our country became more developed, our standard of living rose without any objection. There is nothing wrong with a higher standard of living if you ask me. If you believe we should go back to a time where Americans were working 60 hours a week with no OT compensation just to eat and have a place to crap, I'm not sure what type of American you are. Most of us get 2 weeks vacation a year, work 60 hours a week, many Saturdays, don't get breaks, and deal with pushy customers who needed their parts last week.

With regards to wages, yes this may have been true in many union settings. Manufacturing wages in non union shops are a completely different matter. If you think $8-$9/hr is "more than they are worth", I'd say you may in fact be the one with an inflated sense of self worth. Most of the skilled tradesman started out making just enough to eat. $20-$30/hr is not asking too much when you have 10-15 years of experience in a profession, as that's pretty standard in any other line of work. In fact, that is rather low compared to many occupations which don't produce anything of value to anyone.

And I previously outlined my experience in the manufacturing sector. Calling people lazy who are stretched thin, on their feet 10 hours a day and exposed to nasty chemicals and dirty air all day... What do you do that's so intensive and taxing on your body anyways? I'd wager to bet that most of the complainers wouldn't last a week stamping concrete in a real manufacturing setting. Most of us have a couple scars to prove the job is no joke.

For all the whining about there being no jobs, there are plenty of jobs available in the manufacturing sector. Still don't find many people interested in actually learning a skill.




Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
or....invest in education here so that we have the engineers we need, as Steve Jobs indicated, to fill these jobs here. we won't get all jobs back - that's just a fact. but there are many that we could get back.

Problem with engineering here is engineers are too far removed from the practical side of the equation. This makes them obsolete compared to engineers in places like Germany, where many of the engineers start on the factory floor. Combine that engineering degree with a year or two actually making things, and you would be surprised how sought after you would be in this country. Where we screwed up in manufacturing in this country... Overlooking experience and valuing the degree alone. Those engineers without the practical experience cost their companies a pretty penny in stupid mistakes and lost opportunities. Case and point... If a dimension can be altered to allow for a simpler manufacturing process, the company can save a ton of money. Most engineers wouldn't have a clue because they have never actually made anything before and they don't understand the processes involved. Time is money. If I can save the customer time, they can save more money and offer their product at a better value. Good luck getting that from anyone else, and good luck getting that in China.

The shops making money today... They don't hire expensive engineers. They find the oldest, most grizzled and battle hardened machinist and pay him 60K, make him work 60 hours a week, and let him utilize his wealth of experience to make (and save) the company money. I would never recommend anyone get a manufacturing engineering degree in this day and age because they are being priced out of the market. Most of them that I have worked with are paid a patience and given small chores and errands to run all day. Yuck. Sounds like a bad investment to me. You could work for a big company that still holds that degree in high esteem, so long as you recognize they are outsourcing tons of their work to the shops I described above because... They don't have expensive engineers to pay for. So long as the parts are good, no one cares if you went to college. They are more concerned about how much they have to pay you. Welcome to value hungry America.
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:29 PM
 
Location: I live wherever I am.
1,935 posts, read 4,068,194 times
Reputation: 3266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velvet Jones View Post
I'm sorry, you're views on #1 and #2 are extremely naive. I grew up in Pittsburgh, the city's history is filled with fine examples of what the business world is like with no regulations such as minimum wage. Companies will not pay even a prevailing wage, whatever that is.
"Prevailing" means "most common". If all companies are paying $2/hour for the same job, then that's the prevailing wage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Velvet Jones View Post
This is what Mexico has, look how well it is working.
It's working well enough for us to have our freaking TOOTHPASTE made in Mexico, along with many of our so-called American cars. And if the Mexicans don't like the wages they're being offered for these jobs, they can refuse to take the jobs. If I offer a job at $2 per hour and someone takes it, that person is telling me "I am willing to do this job for compensation of $2 per hour". If that wage is too low, I will not find anyone competent to do the job and I will be forced to raise my offered salary. That's a free market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Velvet Jones View Post
BTW, China has a minimum wage, which when compared with our cost of living is actually very competitive.
The problem is their overall cost of living, at least in certain parts of the country, is extremely low.
Yeah, but it's like "cents per hour".

You should know that I have employed people before and I never paid minimum wage nor even close to it. That's because I had to pay more, to get people qualified to do the jobs that I needed them to do. Employers aren't stupid. They know they have to get people who CAN do the jobs... and that they must pay those people enough. But if I can get qualified people at $5 per hour, having to pay then $8 per hour is, in the words of a previous poster, burning value. It's overpaying for something. If you COULD easily get gasoline for $2 per gallon, why would you pay $4 per gallon for it?
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Old 11-08-2012, 09:04 PM
 
3,853 posts, read 11,980,983 times
Reputation: 2522
I hate to say it but, there is nothing that can stop it.

Competition will force all services/production to go to the lowest bidder. In this case, it's usually China/India plus the other 3rd world countries who are on the same level as China/India. If a company stays in the USA, they will eventually be replaced by the competition. The only industries that MIGHT be safe are those with good intellectual property but even in that case, there is nothing stopping a company from moving production/research overseas. It is all about maximizing profits and right now going overseas is good for profits. It is a dog eat dog world and no one really cares where their products come from.
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Old 11-08-2012, 09:44 PM
 
1,566 posts, read 2,884,298 times
Reputation: 1262
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanBeano View Post
What an utterly ridiculous statement. Someone is paid 9 vs 2 is because of the cost of living, not the value of the job. Gee whiz, get a clue.
lololol pot kettle
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Old 11-08-2012, 09:46 PM
 
Location: 3rd Rock fts
748 posts, read 1,000,309 times
Reputation: 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire
We are saturated, and plenty of well paying companies have found ways to limit their needs for highly skilled workers. Technology improves efficiency, and improved efficiency means you can do far more with less. Many educated engineers have been reduced to little more than mere CAD operators, salesman and technicians.

...The modern day factory rat is part engineer, part technician, and add to that a pinch of elbow grease and work ethic...This stuff is acquired on the factory floor, not in a classroom.

...Problem with engineering here is engineers are too far removed from the practical side of the equation. This makes them obsolete compared to engineers in places like Germany, where many of the engineers start on the factory floor.

...The shops making money today...They don't hire expensive engineers. They find the oldest, most grizzled and battle hardened machinist and pay him 60K, make him work 60 hours a week, and let him utilize his wealth of experience to make (and save) the company money. I would never recommend anyone get a manufacturing engineering degree in this day and age because they are being priced out of the market. Most of them that I have worked with are paid a patience and given small chores and errands to run all day.
Most of your quotes above admit that there’s NO/not enough skilled work for a full time Engineer to keep busy. It sounds like you’re in a manufacturing training bubble area—these engineering certificate mills spit out graduates monthly; they’re for creating teaching jobs, not machinist jobs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire
For all the whining about there being no jobs, there are plenty of jobs available in the manufacturing sector. Still don't find many people interested in actually learning a skill.
You definitely have an accurate pulse on what’s going on with manufacturing, but this statement is wacky dude. This deceptive rhetoric is why shipping jobs overseas was easy to justify circa 2000. This idiom doesn’t fly in 2012!

IMO your latest education-related quotes’ are what Steve Jobs was dubiously, but accurately concluding: It's a struggle to get the glorified American Engineers to work/rub elbows with the minions on the shop floor!

Last edited by DSOs; 11-08-2012 at 09:48 PM.. Reason: added words
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Old 11-08-2012, 09:47 PM
 
1,566 posts, read 2,884,298 times
Reputation: 1262
$20-$30/hr is not asking too much when you have 10-15 years of experience in a profession, as that's pretty standard in any other line of work. In fact, that is rather low compared to many occupations which don't produce anything of value to anyone.


20 or 30 dollars isnt much to ask if you can generate more than that for your company and most other people can't
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:24 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
17,424 posts, read 16,107,470 times
Reputation: 17295
Quote:
Originally Posted by bxlefty23 View Post
20 or 30 dollars isnt much to ask if you can generate more than that for your company and most other people can't


Thanks to automation, most manufacturing workers employed today are very capable of this. Most people are just stuck in the past... Manufacturing is a dying profession and most of the jobs are gone because broom pushers want $40/hr. That was news maybe 30 years ago. It's a completely different ballgame today. Those workers you are probably thinking of were laid off over a decade ago and replaced by illegal migrant labor. Manufacturing jobs are not disappearing because workers can't make their company money. Quite the contrary, they are making their boss so much money that he can afford to buy even more efficient automated equipment so he can lay off even more unskilled/semiskilled shop hands. Automation is a real job killer for grunt labor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSOs View Post
Most of your quotes above admit that there’s NO/not enough skilled work for a full time Engineer to keep busy. It sounds like you’re in a manufacturing training bubble area—these engineering certificate mills spit out graduates monthly; they’re for creating teaching jobs, not machinist jobs.

I'm not entirely sure what you are referring to. Perhaps those 6 month cupcake CNC programs that teach you to write your name in a block of 4140? Never had exposure to them. They at least get people interested in the work, but beyond that, they don't produce skilled workers. That's really not the point of most education programs anyways. It's to provide exposure and open the door to a profession... So you can actually get a job and learn something of practical worth.

At any rate, find me an actual skilled machinist and I will show you someone who is most likely employed. They are difficult to find, especially when you have to sort out the guys who push the green button, and the guys who program the equipment... Without destroying it in the process. A local company has had a billboard up for 2 months now advertising job openings for machinist. Looking, but not finding I take it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DSOs View Post
You definitely have an accurate pulse on what’s going on with manufacturing, but this statement is wacky dude. This deceptive rhetoric is why shipping jobs overseas was easy to justify circa 2000. This idiom doesn’t fly in 2012!

IMO your latest education-related quotes’ are what Steve Jobs was dubiously, but accurately concluding: It's a struggle to get the glorified American Engineers to work/rub elbows with the minions on the shop floor!
I would agree regarding the attitude some have. Which is why many factories are hiring more skilled workers and giving them the responsibility while avoiding hiring the engineer if they can. Skilled factory worker works for 50K/yr and is happy. Engineer looks down on such an income and refuses to get dirty. Your typical skilled worker is more than capable of using the same software and refers to much of the same knowledge base. That's where America has been becoming very competitive. Value for money, running leaner, and working smarter.

As for the jobs sent overseas... Your average engineer or skilled worker isn't too worries if China is making holiday ornaments. It's of no concern to the average shop or factory owner still in the business today. We aren't going to be assembling Macbooks and Iphones. That's more a problem for the $9/hr workers who have no opportunities left.

But I would ask... What exactly did you find so whacky?
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Old 11-08-2012, 11:59 PM
 
3,853 posts, read 11,980,983 times
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Quote:
As for the jobs sent overseas... Your average engineer or skilled worker isn't too worries if China is making holiday ornaments. It's of no concern to the average shop or factory owner still in the business today. We aren't going to be assembling Macbooks and Iphones. That's more a problem for the $9/hr workers who have no opportunities left.
Yes, the USA still is good at skilled manufacturing, but for how long? Do you really think joe chinaman wants to keep working unskilled manufacturing for under 1$/hr? Hell no, they too are learning how to operate the skilled machines so one day they can make 1.25$/hr!!

China and India are going to dominate everything. They have universities too and I know India produces more engineering/computer science graduates than the USA! The acceptance rate for the Indian Institutes of Technology is less than 1%. It's super competitive so the graduates coming out of those schools are super smart.

The real reason skilled manufacturing isn't rushing over to China is because of trade secrets. Chinese will steal the secrets and sell to other companies. Once you lose your trade secrets, you have zero competitive advantage. The Chinese will replicate and lower cost.
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