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Old 11-09-2012, 01:09 AM
 
3,853 posts, read 11,990,302 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bxlefty23 View Post
$20-$30/hr is not asking too much when you have 10-15 years of experience in a profession, as that's pretty standard in any other line of work. In fact, that is rather low compared to many occupations which don't produce anything of value to anyone.


20 or 30 dollars isnt much to ask if you can generate more than that for your company and most other people can't
The name of the game is profit maximization. That means cutting cost to bare minimum and charging highest price.

Why would I want to pay 20-30$/hr, when I can pay 5-10$/hr for a similar skilled person in India? Makes no sense. They have 10-15 years exp too. By going overseas, I lower my cost for labor and my profits go up. Consumers don't care where stuff is made these days. When the american middle consuming class is gone, then I'll just start selling my products to Indian and Chinese consumers. Personally, I do not care who buys my products.

Just look at the fortune 500, they're all rush to sell products in China and India, why are they doing this? Simple, China/India is growing fast and the consuming class is growing over there. They want big cars, big houses, nice clothes just like the Americans.
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Old 11-09-2012, 02:33 AM
 
1,566 posts, read 2,887,865 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post

Thanks to automation, most manufacturing workers employed today are very capable of this. Most people are just stuck in the past... Manufacturing is a dying profession and most of the jobs are gone because broom pushers want $40/hr. That was news maybe 30 years ago. It's a completely different ballgame today. Those workers you are probably thinking of were laid off over a decade ago and replaced by illegal migrant labor. Manufacturing jobs are not disappearing because workers can't make their company money. Quite the contrary, they are making their boss so much money that he can afford to buy even more efficient automated equipment so he can lay off even more unskilled/semiskilled shop hands. Automation is a real job killer for grunt labor.




I'm not entirely sure what you are referring to. Perhaps those 6 month cupcake CNC programs that teach you to write your name in a block of 4140? Never had exposure to them. They at least get people interested in the work, but beyond that, they don't produce skilled workers. That's really not the point of most education programs anyways. It's to provide exposure and open the door to a profession... So you can actually get a job and learn something of practical worth.

At any rate, find me an actual skilled machinist and I will show you someone who is most likely employed. They are difficult to find, especially when you have to sort out the guys who push the green button, and the guys who program the equipment... Without destroying it in the process. A local company has had a billboard up for 2 months now advertising job openings for machinist. Looking, but not finding I take it.




I would agree regarding the attitude some have. Which is why many factories are hiring more skilled workers and giving them the responsibility while avoiding hiring the engineer if they can. Skilled factory worker works for 50K/yr and is happy. Engineer looks down on such an income and refuses to get dirty. Your typical skilled worker is more than capable of using the same software and refers to much of the same knowledge base. That's where America has been becoming very competitive. Value for money, running leaner, and working smarter.

As for the jobs sent overseas... Your average engineer or skilled worker isn't too worries if China is making holiday ornaments. It's of no concern to the average shop or factory owner still in the business today. We aren't going to be assembling Macbooks and Iphones. That's more a problem for the $9/hr workers who have no opportunities left.

But I would ask... What exactly did you find so whacky?
you commented on half of my post not the whole thing although i do agree with your reasoning
what your graphs show is the automation is doing most of the work and you can use anyone who isnt completely brain dead to do most of those jobs hence most people doing those jobs not being worth 30 dollars an hour
A perfect example is the drastically overpaid union auto workers
When you have people making 50 dollars an hour to do something that lots of people who are either unemployeed or working for penuts somewhere else can do as good or better then they are drastically overpaid.They are not actually producing anything of value to their company regardless of what the product sells for because tons of other people out there would be happy to do the same job for 15 dollars an hour and do it just as well. They are in fact costing their company 35 dollars an hour by being there.

to be worth a lot of money to employers you must be able to produce money for them and be hard to replace- YOU NEED TO BE BOTH


Its the same with any job
To simplify things
If you want to be well paid you need to be valuable to the company and hard to replace
If 2 salemen each sell a product for 1000 dollars that a store sells for a 50 percent markup the store has made a 500 dollar profit
But if one product is very hard to sell, and the other is very easy to sell both salesmen are not equally valuable. the hard product to sell all likelihood would not have been sold without an excellent salesmen and the easy product likely would have been sold if the salesmen was replaced with basically any random idiot.
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:48 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,595,179 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killer2021 View Post
The name of the game is profit maximization. That means cutting cost to bare minimum and charging highest price.

Why would I want to pay 20-30$/hr, when I can pay 5-10$/hr for a similar skilled person in India? Makes no sense. They have 10-15 years exp too. By going overseas, I lower my cost for labor and my profits go up. Consumers don't care where stuff is made these days. When the american middle consuming class is gone, then I'll just start selling my products to Indian and Chinese consumers. Personally, I do not care who buys my products.

Just look at the fortune 500, they're all rush to sell products in China and India, why are they doing this? Simple, China/India is growing fast and the consuming class is growing over there. They want big cars, big houses, nice clothes just like the Americans.
It all boils down to what benefits whom. Today everything is tilted in favor of Wall St and multinational corporations who are dictating trade policies by way of outright purchase of the American government.
They are able to do this due to the ignorance of the American people.
Will the American people ever wise up? Sadly I do not see any indication of that. In fact I see the opposite.
The cognitive ability of the average American to relate cause to effect seems to have been uneducated right out of them.
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Old 11-09-2012, 09:11 AM
 
28,900 posts, read 48,809,195 times
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Andy Grove did an interview on this very subject a couple of years ago. Essentially, a plant that costs one billion dollars to built overseas costs two billion to build in this country. And only 10% of that excess cost is in labor. The rest is in taxes and regulations.

For example, the United States has the highest corporate tax rate in the industrialized world at 35%. Even Sweden pegs their rate at 23.5%. So American corporations that manufacture overseas have constructed this web of overseas subsidiaries that pay whatever the host country's corporate tax rate is. The last thing they want to do is bring home that revenue and have a third or half again in profits be taken out in taxes.

However, it is interesting how some companies who don't have overseas subsidiaries are taking baby steps to bring manufacturing back into the country. Why? Because rising labor costs overseas actually make domestic manufacturing competitive again in some industries. For example, one of my clients is a furniture manufacture. Roughly 45% of his production has been in China for several years. However, more and more of his production is being brought back to the states. Why? Part of it has to do with the long delays from order to delivery, as much as 16 weeks in many cases. But just as much has to do with labor costs. His labor costs have risen roughly 25% over the past two years in China, even though the Chinese currency is nominally pegged to the dollar.

For the large majority of manufacturing jobs, major technical skills are not the issue. After all, most workers in China and Indonesia do not have very good skills. Instead it boils down to the cost of doing business in the United States, both in terms of taxation and regulation, as well as what it costs to hire, employ, and fire workers in the United States. Until we change both, we will continue to see problems.
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Old 11-09-2012, 09:21 AM
 
2,538 posts, read 4,232,225 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post
"Prevailing" means "most common". If all companies are paying $2/hour for the same job, then that's the prevailing wage.

It's working well enough for us to have our freaking TOOTHPASTE made in Mexico, along with many of our so-called American cars. And if the Mexicans don't like the wages they're being offered for these jobs, they can refuse to take the jobs. If I offer a job at $2 per hour and someone takes it, that person is telling me "I am willing to do this job for compensation of $2 per hour". If that wage is too low, I will not find anyone competent to do the job and I will be forced to raise my offered salary. That's a free market.
You still operate under the delusion that there would be a free market. History has repeatedly shown that is not the case. As soon as regulations are removed businesses will collude with each other to suppress wages to serf levels. This is what was happening all over the US until the labor movement finally took hold in the 1930s. Industries like steel, mining, and food processing had tons of competition, yet they all paid next to nothing because they all agreed to keep wages low as it benefited them all. The fact the steel workers were making $0.10 a day, working 80 hours a week, six days a week, and living in company houses was not a result of free markets. It was market manipulation by big business.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:29 AM
 
18,094 posts, read 15,495,086 times
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I think it is just capitalism following its predicted path as Marx stated, so no surprise really about the off shoring and the lack of motivation to employ people in the US. There is nothing that will magically bring jobs back to the US unless this would benefit the company.

Eventually companies will have to start looking past China as wages in Chima rise, and the natural social evolution of society continues; they will start demanding things from employers and the government. It is a bit of a concern that companies value a society like China over one like the US, makes me feel uncomfortable of any company influence in the US. It seems the idea is to oppress one class of people for the benefit of another.

One thing I do not understand is this US-China relationship. The US is spending billions on shoring up defense because of China, yet our companies are supply China with the money to fund their military. We also borrow from China. So to me it is either a great military-industrial complex plot; fund and create an enemy to justify military spending; or our government is truly clueless about national security matters; or a combination of and our leaders along with companies (throw the American people in) do not care. If a conflcit ever breaks out, how will the reaciton be knowing the bullets being thrown at us by China were paid for by America?
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:18 PM
 
2,538 posts, read 4,232,225 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus View Post
I think it is just capitalism following its predicted path as Marx stated, so no surprise really about the off shoring and the lack of motivation to employ people in the US. There is nothing that will magically bring jobs back to the US unless this would benefit the company.

Eventually companies will have to start looking past China as wages in Chima rise, and the natural social evolution of society continues; they will start demanding things from employers and the government. It is a bit of a concern that companies value a society like China over one like the US, makes me feel uncomfortable of any company influence in the US. It seems the idea is to oppress one class of people for the benefit of another.

One thing I do not understand is this US-China relationship. The US is spending billions on shoring up defense because of China, yet our companies are supply China with the money to fund their military. We also borrow from China. So to me it is either a great military-industrial complex plot; fund and create an enemy to justify military spending; or our government is truly clueless about national security matters; or a combination of and our leaders along with companies (throw the American people in) do not care. If a conflcit ever breaks out, how will the reaciton be knowing the bullets being thrown at us by China were paid for by America?
When I was in China last year this was their biggest concern. The business journals were full of articles on wage inflation and increased safety and worker welfare regulations in the established manufacturing regions. The minimum wage was going to triple in some areas. Competition from Vietnam and Indonesia is also a big concern, as their wages are about 1/4 the lowest Chinese minimum wage. Chinese manufacturers are increasingly looking towards moving to under-developed regions of the country to keep expenses down and continue polluting with impunity(The pearl river delta is the new hot spot for cheap labor).

Despite what the neo-cons and TV talking heads say, cave dwelling "terrorists" are the least of our worries. We are so dependent on China for just about everything that we wouldn't last six months in a economic conflict, let alone a military one. Unlike 1930s Japan, China is is fairly self sufficient and has the military means to protect what it needs from abroad. If China ever does to become belligerent we will be able to say or do nothing about.
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Old 11-09-2012, 02:18 PM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,545 posts, read 19,366,706 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
The invest in education argument is not a solution for many segments of the population.
Not everyone is going to have the interest or ability to become engineers.
A healthy economy has a diverse mix of both blue and white collar workers.
In order to have a factory you need people to design and people to build, and repair.
The bottom line is we do not need to compete with the people working for a couple of dollars a day within our own markets. We simply need politicians who work for the people and the good of the country instead of Wall St. and Bankers. And all we need in order for that to happen is a population who understands the mechanics of the issue and vote accordingly.
Our real enemy is not outsourcing, or Wall St, or the Politicians as much as it is ignorance itself.
people can keep saying this til they're blue in the face, but we don't have workers to fill certain jobs. i'm not saying every single american needs to become educated and be a white collar worker. many blue collar workers need education also. my dad's company is a public utility, and they desperately need electrical engineers and people with associate's degrees.

saying we need to invest in education doesn't even necessarily imply i'm speaking about higher education either.

i stand by my original statements.
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Old 11-09-2012, 02:39 PM
 
48,508 posts, read 87,919,608 times
Reputation: 18168
Quote:
Originally Posted by killer2021 View Post
The name of the game is profit maximization. That means cutting cost to bare minimum and charging highest price.

Why would I want to pay 20-30$/hr, when I can pay 5-10$/hr for a similar skilled person in India? Makes no sense. They have 10-15 years exp too. By going overseas, I lower my cost for labor and my profits go up. Consumers don't care where stuff is made these days. When the american middle consuming class is gone, then I'll just start selling my products to Indian and Chinese consumers. Personally, I do not care who buys my products.

Just look at the fortune 500, they're all rush to sell products in China and India, why are they doing this? Simple, China/India is growing fast and the consuming class is growing over there. They want big cars, big houses, nice clothes just like the Americans.
The name of the game is competing or going under ;as its always been. I agree that China is goig to be the fastest growig market i time and any nation not ahving acess will be reduced to grek type growth.All this China hate reminds me of the past Japanese hate ;but look at what has happened to the Japanese.
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Old 11-09-2012, 03:12 PM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,595,179 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
people can keep saying this til they're blue in the face, but we don't have workers to fill certain jobs. i'm not saying every single american needs to become educated and be a white collar worker. many blue collar workers need education also. my dad's company is a public utility, and they desperately need electrical engineers and people with associate's degrees.

saying we need to invest in education doesn't even necessarily imply i'm speaking about higher education either.

i stand by my original statements.
What are you going to do with someone with an associate degree? There is no real job and associate degree prepares you for that you could not train someone to do in six months.
Spending time in a classroom does not equate to intelligence.
What American corporations need to do, which none of them do, is to accurately assess the workers they have. Most people who work in the corporate world will tell you that some of the most intelligent and capable people they have are in lower tier positions due to the fact that they don't have a degree.
Today in this country, a degree is more a function of money and circumstance than intelligence.
How many companies ever give their employees an IQ test or an aptitude test to see what their real abilities are?
It would probably also surprise you to know that many lower level employees are the ones who do the majority of the decision making in corporations because most administrators are afraid to make decisions due to their own incompetency.
They come out of college and get on a management track with a company without ever learning a thing about the core business. Then when incompetent management runs it into the ground they blame the employees or the union or someone else that is not in charge. But they really don’t care because they have a golden parachute, and they will probably get bailed out at taxpayers’ expense anyway. It is all a freekin joke.
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