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Old 11-10-2012, 10:57 AM
 
18,094 posts, read 15,680,308 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
Today shop classes have all but gone away. We have new hires come into our company who literally do not know the difference between a wrench and a screwdriver, much less what to do with them.
When you have to start people from that level, training becomes a much more expensive and time consuming venture.
People are free to learn those things on their own. I took all sorts of shop classes and everyone who chose these classes were already interested in this stuff, thus already had basic knowledge of these things.

Since the classes were electives, people who were already interested and had basic (even more advanced) knowledge took them. Simply having one or two classes as a requirement will not magically make someone interested in this subject.

Plus, there is the natural mechanical aptitude; the natural concept on how something works. I did not ever specifically have someone sit down with me and go over what a screw driver is used for, common sense shows what it is used for.
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Old 11-10-2012, 03:00 PM
 
Location: Ohio
22,798 posts, read 15,937,950 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpasa View Post
Offshoring/outsourcing has been a huge problem for at least 20 years, but what can be done to encourage American companies to keep their factories inside the US?
Enact a maximum wage law. Set the maximum wage at $10/hour and allow for annual cost of living wage increases once Mbuto in the Congo catches up to you. Right now, he's making about $0.09 per day -- for a 10-16 hour day of work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpasa View Post
My point is that the quality of life in America, in general, is better when the unemployment rate is down. There's more people working and therefore paying income taxes, buying things, and are less likely to be on welfare.
You figured that out by yourself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpasa View Post
Outsourcing does save money for America's companies but it dries up the economy. It was mentioned on 60 Minutes a few weeks ago. A textile company in America laid off half its people and opened a plant in Honduras. That's good for the textile company and good for Honduras. How is it good for that little American town?
Who cares if it's good for that little American town?

It is good. For the world. You need to be thinking globally.

You're in a global environment and economy. Your feelings about that are completely irrelevant. There's no going back, short of some cataclysmic disaster like an asteroid strike. The denial, the frustration, the anger....I get that. I do. People are basically conservative, meaning they resist changes, especially when those changes occur rapidly. It can seem that things are out of control, or that you're not in control (or both).

There are three Laws of Business Economics. You have to 100% compliant with all three laws all of the time, and if you're not, then you fail.

1] You have to provide a product/service that's in demand; and
2] The product/service has to be of the highest possible quality comparatively; and
3] You must market and sell your products/services at the most competitive prices.

See anyone making buggy whips? 8-track tape players? DATs, cassettes, vinyl records? Seen any key-punch operators lately? How about ice boxes? Seen the ice-man, coal-man, diaper-man, milk-man come around lately?

Diaper-man? Yeah. Guy in a big pink step-van came round to pick up dirty diapers and give you a set of fresh clean ones. I'm not kidding. That really happened. Once upon a time. In America.

That covers the First Law. The Second Law, comparative quality applies more to services than products. Technologically speaking, there's no real qualitative difference. The GAP brand blue jeans made at UTA in Vlaicu are the same quality as Levi's jeans made at UTA in Vlaicu, which are the same quality as Wrangler blue jeans made at UTA in Vlaicu, which are the same as Calvin Klein blue jeans made at UTA in Vlaicu, uh, by the same workers.

Everyone has access to the same technology. I got a MAZAK, he's got a MAZAK, she's got a MAZAK we all got MAZAK machines to press, mill, grind, bore, lathe or whatever we need. We all use Japanese-made Nissei plastic injection molding machines. Packaged products, whether they be meats, pharmaceuticals, shampoos, lotions etc, etc etc, are all packaged on the same machines, which are either made in Germany or made in Italy.

All things being equal, at the end of the day, it comes down to price.

Your foreign policy resulted in rapid growth and an high standard of living and quality of life, but what was once an advantage to you is now a disadvantage to you, because you cannot compete globally.

Balatag the Filipino makes $1.60/hour running his Japanese-made Nissei plastic injection molding machine cranking out 12 plastic kitchen gadgets per hour.

Long Wang in Vietnam gets $1.35/hour to run his Japanese-made Nissei plastic injection molding machine cranking out 12 plastic kitchen gadgets per hour.

And then Union Fred gets $32/hour to run his Japanese-made Nissei plastic injection molding machine cranking out 12 plastic kitchen gadgets per hour.

You don't see a problem there?

Are American workers more productive? Nope. I just proved that to be one of the greatest lies ever told.

What about costs? Let’s look at the Wage Cost…the Wage Cost; not the Labor Cost…

Balatag the Filipino makes $1.60/hour 12 plastic kitchen gadgets per hour = $0.133 each

Long Wang in Vietnam gets $1.35/hour 12 plastic kitchen gadgets per hour = $0.113 each

Union Fred gets $32/hour 12 plastic kitchen gadgets per hour = $2.67 each

The Wage Cost is the Labor Cost plus benefits and mandatory taxes. If Union Fred is getting $32/hour then actually costs $48/hour with FICA, HI, 401(k), vacation/holiday pay, health care, FUTA, SUTA and worker’s compensation.

Union Fred gets $48/hour 12 plastic kitchen gadgets per hour = $4.00 each

That doesn’t even count all manner of federal and State regulations, plus the myriad taxes and then overhead.

But let’s ignore that for the sake of argument. To make a $1 profit, Union Fred’s company has to seel the kitchen gadgets for $5.00 each, but companies in China, the Philippines and Vietnam can sell their kitchen gadgets for $2.00 each and make a $1 profit.

How can American companies compete against that? You refuse to pay American-made goods if there are cheaper foreign alternatives, so why should foreigners pay more for American-made goods?

You must sell to the whole world, not just America. There are 314 Million Americans, but there are 6.5 Billion people in the rest of the world – and those are the people you have to sell too in order to stay and business and they cannot buy your products, because they are too expensive due to the fact that your wages are too high.

What happens?

Look at Zenith. Zenith could not compete globally because American workers make too much money. Korean corporation Life’s Good could sell to the whole world, because Korean workers don’t make that much money.


Because Life’s Good could sell to 6.5 Billion people, they made more profits and they used those profits to buy stock in Zenith, and then one day, Life’s Good owned Zenith.

And you think that’s great? Zenith employees are working at Wal-Mart and McDonald’s, so tell us how wonderful that is.

If Zenith off-shored to Korea, or Mexico, or China, then Zenith could sell to the whole world and Zenith just might still be in business.

So…..what can you do? Absolutely nothing.

You want to enact tariffs? Again…very stupid…it is a global economy and tariffs won’t make US companies competitive globally, because the problem is that Americans are paid too much.

You want to punish companies, tax them, bar them from off-shoring? How does that make US companies competitively globally? It doesn’t.

In order for US companies to compete globally, US companies must sell to the whole world and US companies cannot do that because Americans are paid way too much.

You must wait until the rest of the world catches up to you in terms of wages. Generally, wages in developing States double every 10 years, so by about the year 2040 the US should start to be competitive globally, and by the year 2060 everything should be in some sort of equilibrium.

But know this…during that time your standard of living will decline…rising wages in other countries will drive up the price of goods and services and your wages will remain stagnant so that each year you buy fewer and fewer items and do less.

And that will cost you more jobs.

Now, I’ll frame the issue quite simply….

…explain why workers in other countries will buy American-made goods.

If you can explain that, then you maybe you can answer your own question.

Economically...

Mircea

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryleeII View Post
Ummm....is there something wrong with being selfish
Only if it becomes an obsession.

Psychologically...

Mircea
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Old 11-10-2012, 03:05 PM
 
48,508 posts, read 88,463,443 times
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I was watching a interst program on new colege graduates especially MBA s trneds.It gave the numbers that basically show that young americans are seeig th eworld differently. more and more MBA are not seekig to go to work o wall street but goig foreign for what they see is better opportnity of emergng markets.The same can be of those in europe for even a long period.Its kid of like mnay here i the oil business that are blue collar workers have sicne thew 70's more and more gone where the oil is produced for opportunity.
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Old 11-11-2012, 08:32 PM
 
Location: 3rd Rock fts
749 posts, read 1,004,932 times
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Andywire, I agree with 90% of what you’re saying except for:

Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire
What I said was shops have found ways to limit their need for engineers because skilled labor is doing much of their work now. Many of the "engineers" I have worked with are actually just machinists with HS diplomas and years of targeted experience. They get the job done faster, work all the OT, don't mind getting dirty, and many times work cheaper or appreciate decent pay for what it is. The engineer coming out of college expects the same wage that the machinist earns after 10 years of experience, so the graduate gets priced out of the market.
This is the problem with the multi-generational USA “Leisure Class” mentality. Steve Jobs would give you a high5 for understanding his dubious, but accurate conclusions (no sarcasm intended).


Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire
The only difference today is the machinery is far more sophisticated, and often times, finding the machinist who is familiar with your particular machine is quite a challenge.
Not entirely true. The FAST, high-tech, modern-sophisticated machine shop has been established since the late 80s. Inspection equipment/machining METHODS have seen a lot more progress than CNC equipment IMHO.


Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire
Our shop has gone through 3 CNC machinists in the past 6 months who simply could not do the job. They are not easy to find today. And the wages were $35/hr with full health insurance, 4% matched 401K, dental and life insurance.... Still couldn't find the right guy for the job. I would suggest that's good evidence of a labor shortage.
No it’s not! Your company is attracting Union mentality lackeys. Put an ad in for $14-$18/hr TO START & the skilled machinists’ will take you seriously. Also, a company that offers $35/hr TO START is getting Gov’t/politician money/kickbacks & or has a guardian angel in the machining industry.


Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire
I also know Pratt and Whitney has been laying off engineers left and right while putting their machinist apprenticeship program into full gear... With a starting wage of $17/hr for someone with zero experience. Notice a trend???
Yeah, I see the trend: Gov’t handouts in the name of Job creation. Too bad they can’t get the laid off, highly skilled engineers to do the work for $22/hr.


Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire
And by the way... That $50 worker (management maybe???) is not costing his boss any more than the $10/hr worker if the boss is able to price his time into the cost of the product.
Yep, don’t forget the factor in the free airline tickets. The USA relies on phantom, manufactured inflation, with no care/regard to what’s going on around them! Are you starting to understand what Steve Jobs was talking about yet?


Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire
$15/hr and good benefits is pretty good for a HS grad that's good at math and quick with computers. And guess what... They won't make their boss any money for a good year or two.
This sounds like more wackiness/ridiculousness. Why would a company do such a thing? Oh yeah, Gov’t/politician subsidies/kickbacks & or a guardian angel in the machining industry.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom
American wages have always been higher than anywhere else, and yet we had a thriving economy up to the 1990's, so what changed?
Read up on the Hormel Food strikes in 1986. IMO this is when US LABOR should have began the incremental, SLOW adjustment of wages as to reflect the new economy that was just around the corner!
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Old 11-12-2012, 03:20 AM
 
Location: H-town, TX.
3,503 posts, read 6,344,982 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post
What can be done? It's very simple.

1) Repeal the minimum wage laws at the federal level. A free market will determine its own acceptable wages when there is agreement between employees (who determine what they're willing to work for) and employers (who determine what they're willing to pay). We offshore because it's much cheaper to do so. It ain't easier - it's cheaper. Repeal laws that require employers to pay one person in America what they could pay ten people in China, and we'll see change.

2) Repeal onerous tax and accounting laws on businesses. Payroll taxes? Social security taxes? Withholding? Health insurance? Yadda yadda yadda yadda. Just LET 'EM GIVE PEOPLE MONEY IN EXCHANGE FOR WORK and LEAVE THEM THE *bleep* ALONE!!!! I can tell you that I thought about hiring people to expand my business but decided against it because it was too much hassle, and would've been too expensive to hire someone else to take care of the hassle for me. This is a definite squeeze on businesses.

3) Enact tax and trade laws which discourage trade with other countries and encourage business to remain within America. That's often derided as "protectionism"... but isn't that what we're talking about right now... PROTECTING jobs in our country and preventing them from going overseas?

End of economics lesson.

Oh by the way, America, you didn't do what you needed to do, last night, to step in the right direction with this. I'm not saying Romney was the best choice either... but how many of y'all voted for someone OTHER than Obama or Romney?
Agreed. I remember just running my restaurant and employees wanted raises, which is fine and dandy. Unfortunately, for them, taxes took at least another 25% out of my pocket. When profit margins are non-existant...

The US corporate tax rate is stupid high, even compared to most European nations. Granted, even the Euros are moving factories here, but that speaks against their tax rates. But, hey, "corporations" is a four-letter word to many and they should all run losses. I'm not sure a kid making $8.25/hour needs to be making that, anyway. Most have nothing to their name, so...?

I voted third party, byw.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:35 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,627,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus View Post
due to EEO liability, probably few or none. They would have to set the bar so low to avoid EEO problems that the purpose of the test would be defeated. This is why many companies now resort to having the degree requirement as a way to do the assessment for them.
The EEO is a quota system for hiring; it in no way prevents companies from testing employees for proper placement.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:48 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,627,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus View Post
People are free to learn those things on their own. I took all sorts of shop classes and everyone who chose these classes were already interested in this stuff, thus already had basic knowledge of these things.

Since the classes were electives, people who were already interested and had basic (even more advanced) knowledge took them. Simply having one or two classes as a requirement will not magically make someone interested in this subject.

Plus, there is the natural mechanical aptitude; the natural concept on how something works. I did not ever specifically have someone sit down with me and go over what a screw driver is used for, common sense shows what it is used for.
Many school districts have discontinued shop classes. And no, people are not free to learn these things on their own because many of these shop environments cost hundreds of thousands or millions to duplicate.
No one is saying shop classes create interest; they simply facilitate an alternative career path to college.
Aptitude and personality tests need to be administered from middle school all the way through high school in order to help students understand their abilities and interests, and how those traits translate to finding a career they will enjoy, find interesting and rewarding.
The vast majority of people who do not go to college simply end up working in whatever occupation they can find a job in. As a result they are often disinterested in their job and their performance is substandard.
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:27 AM
 
18,094 posts, read 15,680,308 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
The EEO is a quota system for hiring; it in no way prevents companies from testing employees for proper placement.
If the test causes adverse impact against a protected group, that violates EEO regs and the burden is placed on the company to prove the business necessity for such testing and grades on the test. A company is wise not to engage in this type of practice, which is why you do not see them do it in the way the poster stated that I responded to.

Have you not even heard of Ricci v. DeStefano? The city invalidated the test results because it created adverse impact because of "They stated that they feared a lawsuit over the test's adverse impact on a protected minority." This challenge to tests have been repeated over and over again throughout the US. Any time a test creates an adverse impact, a company better be ready to defend it self. Have you ever worked for the EEOC? Or in the EEO area of a company?

By the way, EEO is not a quota system, I do not know where you got that from.
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Old 11-12-2012, 01:32 PM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,627,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus View Post
If the test causes adverse impact against a protected group, that violates EEO regs and the burden is placed on the company to prove the business necessity for such testing and grades on the test. A company is wise not to engage in this type of practice, which is why you do not see them do it in the way the poster stated that I responded to.

Have you not even heard of Ricci v. DeStefano? The city invalidated the test results because it created adverse impact because of "They stated that they feared a lawsuit over the test's adverse impact on a protected minority." This challenge to tests have been repeated over and over again throughout the US. Any time a test creates an adverse impact, a company better be ready to defend it self. Have you ever worked for the EEOC? Or in the EEO area of a company?

By the way, EEO is not a quota system, I do not know where you got that from.
EEO is a quota system saying that companies workforce must be a certain number of certain races and genders, regardless of ability to do the job.
It has been a disaster for companies who have been forced to employ people in positions they do not fit and the lawsuits that have resulted when other employees who have to take up the slack retaliate.
It is typical of the know nothing, bureaucratic idiots who force their extremist ideas upon a civilian population who then have to deal with the negative consequences.
The public is currently paying far more for goods and services because of laws that force employers to hire based on factors other than ability to do the job, and the endless frivolous lawsuits of good for nothing employees who run screaming discrimination to excuse their poor job performance.
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Old 11-12-2012, 01:36 PM
 
621 posts, read 595,211 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
No it won't. There is a guy who frequently posts in this subforum who would give you a very detailed explanation of why that is not true. Your only option is to provide things that the world needs.
There is nothing special about American labor. There is nothing that we can do that someone else can do cheaper and just as good if not better. What we have been is the most productive work force in the world. Also the highest paid work force every. The richest middle class ever. The very wealthy envy the wealth of the US middle class. They are taking that wealth for themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
We do fine with agriculture. Much of that is due to "industrial agriculture" processes, and the rest is due to government subsidies as far as I can tell.

We are making many of the same strides in manufacturing though. Consider the methods applied in agriculture. It's nearly void of labor input in many cases. Labor costs are much cheaper in China, yet we produce most of the world's food, and much cheaper. Why? Well, illegal migrant labor handles most of the low level work, professionals aren't paid exorbitantly well, and the process for planting and growing crops requires very little labor anymore. That's exactly the direction manufacturing has been going.
Our ground is very fertile. Some of the best in the world. Plenty of water as well. Agg is one place we shine.


Here is a thought experiment for you. If you have two countries entering into trade. One country puts twice what the other does into their banks, (in % GDP) then they tend to buy debt in the lower savings rate country. This tends to lead to consumption in exes of production. The country with a higher savings rate tends to produce more than it consumes. This tends to drive a trade differential. One country running a trade surplus the other a deficit.


Now there is something about being the world's reserve currency that means that the market will never demand a high enough savings rate to balance trade. But there is nothing stopping us from adopting a savings policy that isn't market driven.





Quote:
Originally Posted by pvande55 View Post
The short answer is for the value of the dollar to go down. Once Americans work cheaper the work will start to come back. Defeated candidate Romney dared to mention that China keeps its currency down for a trade advantage. If he won, though, how long would it take to forget he ever said that?
How to drive the dollar down is with enough inflation to force a decoupling of the dollar and the Chinese currency. With this you also tend to get full employment.
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