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Old 11-14-2012, 12:16 AM
 
24,497 posts, read 37,442,896 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kinkytoes View Post
I am still puzzled about how CEO's can pay themselves millions of dollars and politicians can continue to sign free trade agreements and consider themselves Americans, while so many Americans are suffering.
That's actually VERY rare.
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:08 PM
 
Location: Land of Free Johnson-Weld-2016
6,472 posts, read 14,833,734 times
Reputation: 6469
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
That's actually VERY rare.
You are probably a bit right. I am forgetting I am a CEO of a privately-held corporation. I can barely afford to pay my taxes, much less offshore or pay myself millions.

I would say there are a lot of similar entities in the US who incorporate to do business while trying to protect our personal assets. So I apologize for generalizing about "corporations." I am annoyed when politicians do it, so I should have been more prudent w/ my post.

I meant to fling my handfuls of mud and large, publicly-held corporations. *fling fling* For shame.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:29 PM
 
Location: 3rd Rock fts
749 posts, read 1,004,932 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire
The $35/hr offer was made out of desperation. They offer what it will get the worker through the door
So your company would take the chance of wasting money, crashing expensive machinery & making bad parts—sounds pretty stupid to me? I get it, you work for one of those companies that don’t have time to do it right, but have time to do it over. All right all right, I know that was a cheap shot, but I’m just trying to show the logic.

As for desperation: were the employees of your company obstructing/slowing down work for any reason? A tight-ship should be able to avoid desperation IMHO. Another cheap shot, but this is what goes on when bloated employees’ dictate how a machine shop operates.


Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire
And why would a shop pay more for their labor than they have to? To hold up other workers labor rates? That makes no sense.
It make perfect sense if you understand what’s going on. Blindly paying $35/hr is what makes no sense!


Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire
If the reward wasn't there, those guys are just as capable of changing careers and making good money at something else. When I went to nursing school, we had a couple machinists doing just that.
I’m confused; are these guys skilled machinists, or just looking for steady, lucrative Gov’t-backed healthcare jobs? The machinist’s reward comes from the challenge, knowledge, & love of being in the machining industry; well that’s the way it used to anyway.


Quote:
Why do you find it so hard to believe that skilled workers can still earn a decent income?
Is that what you get from my quotes?
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Old 11-16-2012, 02:08 PM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,627,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
That's actually VERY rare.
It is actually quite simple; the majority of people in positions of power are psychopaths. Approximately 4% of the populations are unable to feel empathy, or guilt, or sympathy for their fellow humans, or anything else for that matter. At the same time many of these psychopaths are intelligent, charming, and to outward appearance very normal. They are drawn by their very nature to positions of authority where they can exert power without conscience on other people. The number of psychopaths in law enforcement and military is estimated at being twice what it is for the general population.
From a evolutional point of view, psychopaths are better equipped to survive due to their lack of ethics and empathy, and prosper in modern society where success is commonly accepted as the most obvious proof that the end justifies the means.

Now if you really want to become worried about what this segment of the population can and does do to the so called normal population, Google the Milgram Experiment.
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:51 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
17,976 posts, read 16,454,380 times
Reputation: 17854
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSOs View Post
So your company would take the chance of wasting money, crashing expensive machinery & making bad parts—sounds pretty stupid to me? I get it, you work for one of those companies that don’t have time to do it right, but have time to do it over. All right all right, I know that was a cheap shot, but I’m just trying to show the logic.
Our company reviews resumes, gives references a call, and generally tries to get an idea of the candidates comfort level in the trade. Aptitude tests are given for some of the younger folks like me. Are they scale rule level, micrometer level, or can they work their way around a CMM machine? There's only so much you can do to screen candidates though. There are no standardized credentials in the trade. Journeyman are rare, and even they sometimes lack the know how with some of the modern equipment. Everything is also very specialized these days with the modern equipment. You might have a guy that ran a screw machine for 10 years, but has no clue how to operate a simple surface grinder. In fact, finding good machinists who can work their way around manual machines is becoming an extreme challenge these days with CNC dominating the shop floor.

Unfortunately, you can't simply hand a guy a blue print and tell him to make that prior to hiring him. That would save us a lot of time and expense, but the liabilities could be massive. In many cases, we are forced to work with what we have at our disposal. The current guy we have ran CNC mills all his life. We needed a CNC lathe guy. We gave him the job, told him he would have to learn, and we are working through the rough spots. It's no fun putting a corner break on 2400 pieces because he doesn't know how to program that in with a cutoff tool, but the most important thing is that he learns, and the customer gets the parts that match their prints. Pretty much the same story everywhere else according to what many of my friends and former coworkers suggest. Anyone who can and wants to do the job is already working, so they aren't applying to our ads. Most shops are booked, backlogged, and turning down work. Customers are scratching their heads at this point too...

And no, we don't send out bad parts. Everyone makes mistakes. It's when the CUSTOMER get's bad parts that we have a problem. That's grounds for sending a guy packing. Regardless, the boss has been making money and seems happy.

There is a shortage of good tradesman though. Part of it has to do with a decade + of shops lowballing their hourly staff. They told their kids to find something else to do for a living. Other guys left the trade all together. Another part is due to companies training guys to do one job only. Run that lathe, don't bother learning how to run a grinder or a mill. The rest is due to companies training guys how to operate the machinery, but refusing to let them learn the trade. Those guys are stuck at $15/hr for life, and they will never be a machinist. And so we have a machinist shortage. That was fine when you had enough of them to go around, but you won't make any money with a shop full of operators and no one to program the machinery.

We run a shop with a crew that must be flexibility. Everybody is trained, crosstrained, and has years of diversified experience, which is very rare today. It takes a lot of time, patience, and money to teach the entire trade, which is why companies and corporations have cut that out of the budget, and created this whole mess. Now they can't find their workers. I'll pull out my violin...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSOs View Post
As for desperation: were the employees of your company obstructing/slowing down work for any reason? A tight-ship should be able to avoid desperation IMHO. Another cheap shot, but this is what goes on when bloated employees’ dictate how a machine shop operates.
We run our machines at 60% during the night... When all the workers go home of course. Tools don't wear at that rate, and it's just a matter of making sure there's enough coolant before you punch out. If we were running our machines slow, the production shop down the street (that has illegal migrant laborers checking the parts) would win the bid on the job, not us. The shop filled with workers you are referring to went out of business last decade.

In fact, when I get stuck babysitting a machine, I'm also running wet grinders, making fixtures on the BP, programming a mill, making one offs on the manual machines, doing maintenance rounds, or making electrodes for the EDM machines. We make decent money cause we work for it. The guy that would have the audacity to turn the rate down on his machine is either looking for a new job, or trying to smooth talk his way into a shop like where I work, where he will last a week if he makes it in. Or maybe he was the guy that flipped the burger I ate last week, who knows.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DSOs View Post
It make perfect sense if you understand what’s going on. Blindly paying $35/hr is what makes no sense!
When you haven't found someone with a toolbox that matches the job in 4 months, and you have customers screaming they need parts made for any price, it does. There is a shortage of workers, and the work is piling up. When we have to turn work down because there are not enough people to do the work, there obviously is a mismatch of resources somewhere.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DSOs View Post
I’m confused; are these guys skilled machinists, or just looking for steady, lucrative Gov’t-backed healthcare jobs?
When the economy took a dump, I applied to nursing school and got in. As did 3 other guys that joined in that picnic. I dropped out because I realized I could make the same money going back to my old line of work... And I wouldn't have to touch poop. The other guys stuck with it. And they aren't going back. Which helps to explain why there is a shortage. Can't complain though. I bought one of the guy's toolboxes and tools for $800. Woulda cost a heck of a lot more anywhere else. Basically covered the cost of the program with the savings.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DSOs View Post
The machinist’s reward comes from the challenge, knowledge, & love of being in the machining industry; well that’s the way it used to anyway.
Agreed, for the most part. Let's not forget that your average machinist was doing pretty darn decent in 1960. Just before cheaper foreign competition and outsources encroached upon the financial reward. My grandfather was a mold maker. Started out dirt poor but was smart and worked hard. Retired without a pension and still died with over a million bucks to his name. Not possible these days, that's for sure. None the less, they had no problems finding qualified workers for this trade back in my grandad's time. Glad he isn't around to see how it's raced to the bottom...

As for all that fluffy feel good crap regarding the trade... There is nothing glamorous about coolant in your morning coffee and metal chips working their way into your work boots. Give a guy a chance to earn better money at something less stressful, and they would be stupid not to take it. I love what I do, but I certainly wouldn't be doing it for a wage that wouldn't afford at least a comfortable living. When I can take your sentiment to the grocery store and exchange it for sustenance for the week, maybe I'll change my stance. After all, we did have a president who got elected because of some hopey changey stuff, so who knows...

At any rate, this generation doesn't have a love for hard work and getting dirty, especially for entry level wages mirroring burger flipping wages. It's only going to get more challenging finding qualified workers as time progresses. Supply and demand, as any other student of the free market would be happy to explain to you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSOs View Post
Is that what you get from my quotes?
Not sure what to make exactly. I just know there are a lot of employers who are looking, and not finding. No mater what they offer. Heard a guy offered $38/hr for a tool and die maker though. The guy said he was only gonna work 25 hours a week cause he's 68 and doesn't really have to work anymore. No complaints on either end. They even found a HS dropout to do all the heavy lifting for him. Donno what they are gonna do when that guy dies, cause nobody has trained on of them since the stone age. The clock is ticking...
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:59 PM
 
7,924 posts, read 4,511,315 times
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Germans require half the companies board members to be elected from the workers.

They don't allow them all to be appointed by the CEO.

They don't see as much off shoring... because then half the board would lose their jobs too.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:03 PM
 
24,497 posts, read 37,442,896 times
Reputation: 12879
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
It is actually quite simple; the majority of people in positions of power are psychopaths. Approximately 4% of the populations are unable to feel empathy, or guilt, or sympathy for their fellow humans, or anything else for that matter. At the same time many of these psychopaths are intelligent, charming, and to outward appearance very normal. They are drawn by their very nature to positions of authority where they can exert power without conscience on other people. The number of psychopaths in law enforcement and military is estimated at being twice what it is for the general population.
From a evolutional point of view, psychopaths are better equipped to survive due to their lack of ethics and empathy, and prosper in modern society where success is commonly accepted as the most obvious proof that the end justifies the means.

Now if you really want to become worried about what this segment of the population can and does do to the so called normal population, Google the Milgram Experiment.
I have no idea where you're going with this, but I was talking about CEOs paying themselves millions. That's VERY rare.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:11 PM
 
7,924 posts, read 4,511,315 times
Reputation: 7389
Quote:
Originally Posted by kinkytoes View Post
I am still puzzled about how CEO's can pay themselves millions of dollars and politicians can continue to sign free trade agreements and consider themselves Americans, while so many Americans are suffering. Long-time CD'ers pls forgive me if the following sounds paranoid...
It was around the time when the country shifted from the left (post New Deal) around the 80s to the right somewhat.

Prior to that... A CEO wouldn't be able to take such pay packages. There would be outrage. Unions wouldn't allow it. The workers wouldn't allow it. Instead the money would go to the workers. It was what was once the workers bargain. As they produced more output, their pay would go up. That all ended, and a few decades of stagnation in American wages followed.

I was expecting post 2008 this would reverse. But so far it appears not to be so. Though it did take awhile for things to change as they did post great depression.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:52 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,627,304 times
Reputation: 5180
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
I have no idea where you're going with this, but I was talking about CEOs paying themselves millions. That's VERY rare.
It was in reference to the question you were answering. How the CEO's could justify their actions.
As far as CEO's making millions, I do not think you can say it is very rare. Median CEO pay in 2010 was $9.0 million, based on 158 Standard & Poor’s 500.
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:06 PM
 
48,508 posts, read 88,463,443 times
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Actaully its a deemdn what you can market as far as employemnt.Realisig that they can even go fireign with their management offers and even to list their compnay.We had no problem i the 50;s thru early 60's beig the manufactirers to the world wehn we beenfited form destruction of other manufacturing base.Its americans that have decided to buy those foreign made goods by perosnal choice.Unless we ca conptete and o qaulity its nt goig to happen.Its also obvious that americaqn goods went down hill to where mnay now prefer many foreign brands and ceretainyl no long want to pay for repriig goods at the rates american repair cost.OItehrwise many would not have insurqnce to pay fr majot auto repsirs.Much of american labor has put itself out of business by cost.
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