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Old 11-25-2012, 07:48 PM
 
Location: west mich
5,739 posts, read 6,170,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus View Post
They can produce the same quality anywhere, it is just a matter of doing so. It does not have to be American made to be quality. A company can make the same item anywhere, Carhartt is just leveraging "buy American" so they can ask a premium price for it. Plus, stating only their American made stuff is quality means the rest of it is garbage.

A company can make the same quality anywhere, it is just a matter of effort.
Don't think much of the American worker eh? Just utilize foreign slave labor so you can get it cheaper.
No American plutocrat should quibble about price.
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Old 11-25-2012, 08:54 PM
 
18,094 posts, read 15,524,599 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detwahDJ View Post
Don't think much of the American worker eh? Just utilize foreign slave labor so you can get it cheaper.
No American plutocrat should quibble about price.
Quality depends on the instructions from the company. The worker being of a certain quality standard is BS; a worker in China can produce the same stitch pattern as a worker in the US, it is only the company that will instruct the Chinese worker to create a less expensive (thus lesser quality) stitch pattern.

The reason foreign made goods are of lower quality, goods produced by American companies mind you, is because the American company has instructed its workforce to produce lower quality products.

Many speak of foreign made goods, but they are not foreign made, they are foreign produced, American companies are the ones giving instructions on how the goods are to be produced, and American companies have chosen to give instructions to produce a lower quality product. The Chinese worker has no choice in how they produce something, they only follow orders, same with an American worker.
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:51 PM
 
Location: west mich
5,739 posts, read 6,170,344 times
Reputation: 2120
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus View Post
Quality depends on the instructions from the company. The worker being of a certain quality standard is BS; a worker in China can produce the same stitch pattern as a worker in the US, it is only the company that will instruct the Chinese worker to create a less expensive (thus lesser quality) stitch pattern.

The reason foreign made goods are of lower quality, goods produced by American companies mind you, is because the American company has instructed its workforce to produce lower quality products.

Many speak of foreign made goods, but they are not foreign made, they are foreign produced, American companies are the ones giving instructions on how the goods are to be produced, and American companies have chosen to give instructions to produce a lower quality product. The Chinese worker has no choice in how they produce something, they only follow orders, same with an American worker.
First of all, I don't get the above statements.
Secondly, I can tell you that workmanship of musical instruments from Indonesia, China, Korea, are often top-notch - they are just produced in factories with lower overhead - low wages, environmental standards, and workplace safety.
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
17,668 posts, read 16,234,749 times
Reputation: 17536
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus View Post
Quality depends on the instructions from the company. The worker being of a certain quality standard is BS; a worker in China can produce the same stitch pattern as a worker in the US, it is only the company that will instruct the Chinese worker to create a less expensive (thus lesser quality) stitch pattern.

The reason foreign made goods are of lower quality, goods produced by American companies mind you, is because the American company has instructed its workforce to produce lower quality products.

Many speak of foreign made goods, but they are not foreign made, they are foreign produced, American companies are the ones giving instructions on how the goods are to be produced, and American companies have chosen to give instructions to produce a lower quality product. The Chinese worker has no choice in how they produce something, they only follow orders, same with an American worker.
So am I to understand the worker has no impact on the quality of the product? It's just as simple as snapping your finger and there you have it, quality?

And here is where you inform everyone reading to stop reading...
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:11 PM
 
18,094 posts, read 15,524,599 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
So am I to understand the worker has no impact on the quality of the product? It's just as simple as snapping your finger and there you have it, quality?

And here is where you inform everyone reading to stop reading...
Then you say how does a worker impact quality?

A worker receives instructions from the company on what to do, and the product passes through company QA checks. A rank and file worker does not have the authority to make decisions impacting quality.

Example: jeans - take jeans made from company A. They have a plant in the US and a plant in China. The US made jeans are great, while the Chinese made ones fall apart at the seams. The US made cost more than the Chinese jeans.

The Chinese jeans are cheaper quality not because of the worker, but because of the instructions company A gave to the worker. The Chinese worker is ordered to make an inferior stitch pattern with inferior threading, while the US worker has been instructed to make a quality stitch pattern with quality threading; the worker has no authority to change this, they are under direction of company management.

Both jeans pass QA testing, however, company A has different QA standards for the Chinese and US jeans; that fault is upon the company, not the worker. If company A, a US company, cared about quality, they could implement the same quality standards anywhere, but they chose not to.

Quality does not come from the worker, quality comes from the design process and management. You could say a Chinese made item is of an inferior quality if it was a Chinese company and they had an inferior design, such as a toaster. But you cannot say because of simply the location and nationality of the workers that an item is inferior.

Take Rowenta, maker of irons. They have two irons, one made in Germany and one made in China. The German one is nice, very nice, and pricey. The Chinese one is not as quality of a product as the German made one, and it is cheaper. It is not quality because after a little while, it leaks water out while ironing. Now, who is in control of the quality process? Who designed and and implemented QA standards for the Chinese product? The Germans did. The Chinese line worker has no authority to state that the product needs to do this or that, that burden is upon the Germans.

So again, the American company, or any company, are the ones who direct what the worker does, the worker does not declare what they are going to do. Therefor the worker does not have an impact on the quality of the product, especially since it is the American company implementing the QA standards, design, and instructions to the workers.
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:23 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
17,668 posts, read 16,234,749 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus View Post
Then you say how does a worker impact quality?

A worker receives instructions from the company on what to do, and the product passes through company QA checks. A rank and file worker does not have the authority to make decisions impacting quality.

Example: jeans - take jeans made from company A. They have a plant in the US and a plant in China. The US made jeans are great, while the Chinese made ones fall apart at the seams. The US made cost more than the Chinese jeans.

The Chinese jeans are cheaper quality not because of the worker, but because of the instructions company A gave to the worker. The Chinese worker is ordered to make an inferior stitch pattern with inferior threading, while the US worker has been instructed to make a quality stitch pattern with quality threading; the worker has no authority to change this, they are under direction of company management.

Both jeans pass QA testing, however, company A has different QA standards for the Chinese and US jeans; that fault is upon the company, not the worker. If company A, a US company, cared about quality, they could implement the same quality standards anywhere, but they chose not to.

Quality does not come from the worker, quality comes from the design process and management. You could say a Chinese made item is of an inferior quality if it was a Chinese company and they had an inferior design, such as a toaster. But you cannot say because of simply the location and nationality of the workers that an item is inferior.

Take Rowenta, maker of irons. They have two irons, one made in Germany and one made in China. The German one is nice, very nice, and pricey. The Chinese one is not as quality of a product as the German made one, and it is cheaper. It is not quality because after a little while, it leaks water out while ironing. Now, who is in control of the quality process? Who designed and and implemented QA standards for the Chinese product? The Germans did. The Chinese line worker has no authority to state that the product needs to do this or that, that burden is upon the Germans.

So again, the American company, or any company, are the ones who direct what the worker does, the worker does not declare what they are going to do. Therefor the worker does not have an impact on the quality of the product, especially since it is the American company implementing the QA standards, design, and instructions to the workers.
What a load of crap. When the foreman hands me a blueprint, nobody tells me how to make it. You either make the part to match the print, or you find a new job. Nobody holds your hand or wipes your behind in the workplace. And quality is not something dictated on a piece of paper. You can either do nice work, or you make crap that isn't worth much to anyone. If your the latter, your job went to China. The former takes years of experience and willingness to learn. That comes from the continuous effort on the part of the worker to strive to do good work. Many Americans may lack that drive, but it still can be found. Those workers are always worth more money, as their work sells for a higher price tag because people are willing to pay more for high quality items. First thing my foreman told me on my first job... Quality is always worth more. If you aren't willing to make the effort to produce quality work, I can't afford to keep you.

You think the rich folks in this country are lining up to buy cheap exported Chinese crap? No, they are buying high quality American and European goods made by a worker and his/her craftsmanship and expertise. There are still plenty of American manufacturers who do very well with highly paid workers. They are the ones making products for the wealthiest 1%. Their work may sell for 300% more than some knockoff garbage, but the rich aren't going to waste their money on crap that may not work, may not last, or just looks awful.

I still buy American made work cloths. Nothing beat the comfort. For the price I pay, they are worth every penny. Life is too short to spend 8-10 hours a day in uncomfortable cloths that wear out in a year.

Yes, you can buy high quality items from China, but guess what... They are still expensive. Folks with money don't have time to sift through piles of Chinese goods to find the one that meets their expectations. Saves a lot of time and aggravation just to go for brand that carries the reputation for quality, and they tend to be made in other places besides China. Companies that want to offer quality don't go to China. They go somewhere that has an abundance of highly skilled workers capable of meeting the customers expectations. America is still on that list.

The job of QC is just to check the worker's work to make sure it meets the customer's expectations. That's why they get paid crap. They serve as a filter, and have no impact on the work by the time they receive it. Most of them that I have seen in the places I've worked at are just perm-temp floor worker rejects.
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Old 11-30-2012, 02:04 PM
 
Location: 3rd Rock fts
748 posts, read 1,001,686 times
Reputation: 304
Default Wage inflation for this mindset?

Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire
What a load of crap. When the foreman hands me a blueprint, nobody tells me how to make it
Collectively speaking, this is the problem with the USA’s union-mentality attitude—nobody tells me how to do it! Whoever quoted the job comes up with, or @ least conveys with the foreman/supervisor, the method of how to do the job & what specialized tools to use. Now, if you’re drilling simple holes in a piece of tubing, then maybe you can get away with your own choice of how to approach the job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire
The job of QC is just to check the worker's work to make sure it meets the customer's expectations. That's why they get paid crap. They serve as a filter, and have no impact on the work by the time they receive it. Most of them that I have seen in the places I've worked at are just perm-temp floor worker rejects.
This is another problem with the USA employee; a condescending closed-circle work environment. The QC inspector is supposed to be the indirect judge/jury/dictator of shop floor quality procedures--belittling him/her is not in the best interest of shop harmony.

It takes 20 years of “pulling teeth” for the USA to FINALLY adapt/adjust to modern shop floor inspection procedures (SPC/ISO 9000/Kaizen[sp?]) & now they feel that QC inspectors are worthless.
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Old 11-30-2012, 07:30 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
17,668 posts, read 16,234,749 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSOs View Post
Collectively speaking, this is the problem with the USA’s union-mentality attitude—nobody tells me how to do it! Whoever quoted the job comes up with, or @ least conveys with the foreman/supervisor, the method of how to do the job & what specialized tools to use. Now, if you’re drilling simple holes in a piece of tubing, then maybe you can get away with your own choice of how to approach the job.
Once again... Not a union man. Nobody tells me how to do the work because if they had to, I would be gone. Nobody wipes anyone's behind. We are jam packed with work, and have no time for the worker that can't figure out manufacturing processes. The jobs we get are quoted by the owner, who is a machinist with 20 years experience. Yes, he knows how the process should run. He also pays well enough that he should expect the worker to also know. If we need specialized tooling, often times we will make them in house.

And the work we do is quite complex and expensive. The foreman will give a brief explanation of potential approaches he would recommend on occasion for newer workers. The rest of us are expected to think. Imagine that... The company has been continuously growing and making money for 20 years. Just made some big investment purchases as well. The problem is finding workers capable of functioning as skilled workers, not factory deadbeat drones. I suspect that maybe many of them were working in your factory were someone hold their hand... How do you expect to create skilled/knowledgeable workers if you don't allow them to use their brains???

Quick question... Do you also remind your workers to breath once in awhile? Maybe spoon feed them around lunch time? It's clear your already wiping their behinds, just curious how far this behavior really goes... It's also clear why there are no longer any actual skilled workers left in this country. What happens when the guy thinking of these manufacturing processes for your company decides to retire? And seriously... What's so hard about making what's on the blue print in the first place?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSOs View Post
This is another problem with the USA employee; a condescending closed-circle work environment. The QC inspector is supposed to be the indirect judge/jury/dictator of shop floor quality procedures--belittling him/her is not in the best interest of shop harmony.
Just describing my experience. The companies I've worked for simply don't respect the position enough I suppose. The company I work for now doesn't even have a designated QC. We do have a toolmaker that checks the shop's work, but we find very little scrap. The machinist himself is expected to check his work. The CMM is available, as well as all the tools required. My goodness, if you can't do that, you better pack your tools up and find another profession. First job I had working in this profession was QC.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DSOs View Post
It takes 20 years of “pulling teeth” for the USA to FINALLY adapt/adjust to modern shop floor inspection procedures (SPC/ISO 9000/Kaizen[sp?]) & now they feel that QC inspectors are worthless.
Please... Most of the crappy Chinese shops that send out garbage have no problem getting their ISO certificate. What a load of crap that is, because they send out scrap all the time. Just another money grab. As always... Skills pay the bills.

And I did not say QC is useless. They serve their function, and they are a necessity for any shop, big or small. Unfortunately, the companies I have worked for did not feel they were worthy of anything but a permatemp $15/hr position. CMMs are pretty simple to run. Half a million dollar machinery isn't terribly hard to run for most operator, but the stakes are a but higher if you happen to screw up...
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Old 11-30-2012, 11:22 PM
 
7,991 posts, read 7,474,734 times
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In a "global economy", if you are not skillful/smart enough, you live a third-world life. That is the way.
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Old 12-02-2012, 06:13 AM
 
Location: Summerville, SC
3,382 posts, read 7,542,191 times
Reputation: 1452
I will admit I bought my first carhart jacket...

WORLD of difference. It was pricey, $185, but I got it on clearance, for $120, then a 40% off sale. Buying a jacket again it(not sure if I will have to) is worth the money.
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