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Old 12-05-2012, 11:39 AM
 
6,473 posts, read 10,909,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
I wasn't. However, I was only referring to the part about labeling, not the rest.
Oh, I apologize then. I didn't know you could report it and thought it was some new thing allowed by the government due to the backlash of Chinese made items.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Alaska
3,027 posts, read 2,865,995 times
Reputation: 5128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
Well, you can choose to define words any way you wish to. You can define them in inflammatory, misleading ways if it suits the purpose of your rant. Let's just take the word "entitlement" There are two ways to view what that means, in terms of government programs:

1. First, the legitimate, positive sense: If we have agreed to work for wages and be paid every two weeks, and if we have performed that work and the two weeks is up, then we are entitled to our paycheck because we have earned it. If we have purchased an annuity and the contract reads that we are to receive a certain amount each month for life, then we are entitled to each monthly payment because we have, in effect, paid for it in advance.

2. Second, the pejorative sense (entitlement as created by law): Let me use food stamps as an example. By law, if people meet the threshold low income requirements, they can present themselves, fill out a form detailing their income, hold out their hands, and say "Here I am, let me have the food stamps." There has been no quid pro quo in this transaction; it is simply a hand-out. Notice I am not arguing against the food stamp program, I am merely describing it - accurately and objectively.

Now let's consider Social Security. Should Social Security be considered an entitlement of the first or second type (as I have defined them in the numbered paragraphs above)? Well, it would be the first type because benefit recipients have paid into the program; there is a quid pro quo, and the benefits are not a hand-out. Enemies of Social Security, who want it eliminated or privatized to suit their own agendas, are fond of calling it an "entitlement program" in order to taint it and demonize it by pretending that it is an entitlement program in the same sense as food stamps.

Now let's consider Medicare. It has elements of both kinds of entitlement. Beneficiaries (enrollees) have paid into the program via payroll taxes which fund Part A (hospitalization). They also pay a monthly premium for Part B (doctor visits and the like), but this premium funds only 25% of the cost, leaving 75% to be funded by the general taxpayer - the 75% being a hand-out, in other words. ("Here I am, and here is proof I am 65, so let me have that three-quarters value in Part B benefits".)

It's not that your original post lacks validity - it does make some good points. But you are so angry about those points that you fall into the trap of overstating your case with the inaccurate use of language. There is a basic and fundamental difference between Social Security and a hand-out, even though both can conceivably be called entitlements. Your use of "entitlement" denies and obscures that difference to the detriment of truth.

Edited to add: You have also mis-used the word "subsidy", but rather than in a misleading sense, in a sense that is plain wrong, period. A subsidy is a helping hand granted by the subsidizer to the subsidized. Examples: Some students' college educations are subsidized by their parents, while others work their way through college. Or: Electric vehicles have been granted a subsidy by the U.S. Congress in the form of a tax credit for their purchase. This subsidizes both the companies which produce them and the consumers who purchase them.

To call Social Security retirement benefits a subsidy is totally erroneous.
Thank you for accurately and succinctly explaining the differences.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:59 AM
 
48,508 posts, read 87,882,635 times
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IMO;when you take the need out to contribute to survive then mnay will take advanatge of it. We see the results i our schools and in the collapse of middle class since wealth sharing started in the mid 60's. The end result is what you see i Greece and happening many areas of europe.It also a shame that they actually hurt those who need it ;the handicapped.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Alaska
3,027 posts, read 2,865,995 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marilyn220 View Post
Thanks for breaking it all down Escort.

I just want to make it clear that I'm not against ANY of these government subsidies at all. I live in REALITY not FANTASY. Poor people have been in this country since its inception just like it was in England and old Rome.

They're NOT going anywhere any time soon. It almost sounds like from many of the posts that people are "envious" of the poor's situation. Being under control of the government is nothing anybody should WANT to be a part of.

ETA: I still believe that if you have to fill out GOVERNMENT FORMS to get money that is OWED you, it's a "form" of a government help. Private pensions and retirement funds are NOT. Government loans are a form of a subsidy to help you get through school, but you have to pay it back.
If you truly understand Escort's breakdown, then how can you honestly still believe Social Security is a government handout?

If you file your tax form and get a refund back from the government, then according to your definition, you just received government help. WTF?!
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:12 PM
 
Location: NJ
28,338 posts, read 33,253,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marilyn220 View Post
Yeah right. You must not be reading the same posts I am.
can you please quote a post in which someone blamed poor people for the downfall of society?
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Vermont
10,814 posts, read 12,127,277 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayton Sux View Post
My issue with the poor isnt the welfare state aspect of it, its more...er...aesthetic.

That they are uncouth.


You were saying?
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Keosauqua, Iowa
9,261 posts, read 17,984,734 times
Reputation: 12597
Quote:
Originally Posted by marilyn220 View Post
Yep!! I've also notice that products aren't saying WHERE the products are from anymore. Have you noticed this too??
No. Legally they have to state where they are from. Unless they are made in the US, maybe that's the case here and you just don't realize it.
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Keosauqua, Iowa
9,261 posts, read 17,984,734 times
Reputation: 12597
Quote:
Originally Posted by marilyn220 View Post
Many of you are under the impression that the reason the country owes TRILLIONS is because of government "handouts" and the poor is to BLAME for all of this country's financial ills.
I'm not under that impression at all. But let me explain it to you this way: I could afford to leave my kitchen light turned on 24/7, it would only cost me a couple of bucks a month which is a pretty small amount compared to what I waste on some other things. But that doesn't make it a good idea to do it.
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:36 PM
 
8,370 posts, read 11,636,095 times
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Sorry,but Social Security is an entitlement program.

Do you guys really think someone who paid into the system in 1980 is getting the same amount adjusted for inflation?
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:42 PM
 
6,473 posts, read 10,909,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerseygal4u View Post
Sorry,but Social Security is an entitlement program.

Do you guys really think someone who paid into the system in 1980 is getting the same amount adjusted for inflation?
It is, but people don't want to believe it.

It's actually RED STATE REPUBS that have been calling it an entitlement program for years and are the ones calling for its privatization, along with medicare.

But you can't tell them that though. You'll be accused of speaking "lies, fairytales, and untruths".

I want it ALL GONE!! BANISH EVERY LAST HANDOUT/ENTITLEMENT/GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIZED PROGRAM and let everybody fend for themselves like they did post reconstruction.

Write out a full lump sum check to all retirees and their beneficiaries instead of the monthly payout.

No more DISABILITY payments to people who are mentally/physically disabled. Let them rot or put them in a state home.

No more government backed student loans. If a young person can't pay their way into college, then oh well. We have enough people with degrees anyway.

No more foodstamps to the 1 in 7 Americans receiving it to feed themselves or their families. We're already an obese nation that can go without with a meal or two.

No more government subsidized WIC checks to make sure kids up to age 5 continue to get the formula, milk, cereal, and nutritious food they need to survive. Third world kids survive all the time without it. Some will die, some will develop childhood ailments and others will be just fine. Only the strongest will survive like back in the old days.

No more government subsidized housing for the poor or working class Section 8. So what if there are wall to wall families in shelters during the winter time or if people are freezing under bridges or abandoned buildings. This was how it was back in post reconstruction when everybody "pulled their own weight", they'll make due.

No more government backed medicare or medicaid. Let it become privatized. Let's see how many old people are approved for surgeries. They'll be treated just like how the british treat their old people. They're not going to waste time and money on somebody that's gonna be dead in a few years anyway. Medicaid for kids and adults are unnecessary too. If you're sick, just fight through it. If you happen to drop dead, well, oh well?

FEMA needs to freaking go!! They're not needed. Red Cross can basically do the same job and taxpayers don't have to foot the bill. Right now, all they're doing is loaning out money to distressed families anyway. It's the same thing any bank in america can do.

Let's not forget the other businesses that will go downhill when foodstamps is eliminated - the agricultural industry, cattle industry, supermarkets, etc.

When medicaid and medicare are disbanded - hospitals, pharmacies, drug companies, doctors, nurses, etc.

When government backed student loans are eliminated - universities, professors, text books, alumni donations, college sports, etc.

Yes, let's go back to how things USED TO BE.

Can't wait!

Last edited by marilyn220; 12-05-2012 at 03:07 PM..
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