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Old 12-07-2012, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland
5,724 posts, read 9,157,891 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marksmu View Post
I
In High School in stead of doing drugs, getting drunk every night, and having babies successful people, of all economic backgrounds study and prepare themselves for college...In college, instead of partying all the time and enrolling in worthless BA degrees,like History, Art, or Psychology, successful people study Engineering, Physics, Chemistry, Math, Pre-Med, etc...After college instead of taking the first middle class job that they are offered, successful people enrolled in grad school, choose a specialty, or select career paths that had growth opportunities.

The difference between the poor and the rich is not background, its smart choices.
IMO Your examples better illustrate differences between lower class and middle class. The "rich" play by a different set of rules. BTW, some of the most financially successful people I know (e.g. CEO's) threw the best parties in college.
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Old 12-07-2012, 03:09 PM
 
1,832 posts, read 2,712,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCUBS1 View Post
IMO Your examples better illustrate differences between lower class and middle class. The "rich" play by a different set of rules. BTW, some of the most financially successful people I know (e.g. CEO's) threw the best parties in college.
Your allowed to party hard - but it has to be done at appropriate times...Big parties in the middle of finals probably not a good time...after finals?! party on!

Also, I have generally been excluding the I inherited it rich...Im referring to those who have jobs, or started companies - not those whose dad started a company and they collect the checks now...

While I am still against taxing those people more simply because they are rich, I do not count them in the making right decisions groups. Their decisions never mattered anyway....Daddy was going to take care of them. Besides they have a way of squandering wealth that is far more beneficial to the average person than just giving the money to the government ever could.

The rich trust fund baby spends, and spends big everywhere...the government redistributes huge portions of its taxes over-seas in places like Egypt where our annual aid is $2 Billion dollars....#FAIL.
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Old 12-07-2012, 03:25 PM
 
438 posts, read 1,387,797 times
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The video tries to spare public employee workers from any blame for declining infrastructure when they're in large part a direct result of the problem. When you have cops are firefighters retiring with six figure pensions what do you expect to happen? In many cities nearly over 50% of their budget goes directly to such costs.
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Old 12-08-2012, 12:44 PM
 
4,619 posts, read 3,686,979 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marksmu View Post
Plumbers, electricians, auto mechanics, hvac service people, etc generally all make good wages because they possess a skill the average person does not...

Most plumbers make substantially more money than a college graduate who chooses a worthless degree. Its about choices...There is nothing wrong with a blue collar job - it is good honest work at good honest pay. The real important thing here is that the job require skills that are greater than that of the average person if they expect above average pay.

There is no reason to pay the person flipping hamburgers the same amount of money as the person fixing your car, wiring or plumbing your house, etc...Intelligent people see the differences and choose the deferred gratification that comes with training for something better.

Choices matter...you can sugar coat it however you want but the only way to get ahead is to offer something that everyone else can not. If everyone can do it easily, the pay for that position will be minimal - as it should be....We as a society should not have to pay more for something that is readily available just so someone can have a better paying job.
Let's face it, most of the posting on these forums suffice as a reflection of a sharply divided America, that said, I know your views on things most likely are squared with the norm in todays conservative thinking. Myself? I'm one of those people who had the misfortune of making my living as a "skilled" worker for twenty six years. The first few years were fine, (1965-1968) after that the business association that represented the bulk of owners I worked for went on a vigorous anti union campaign. Breaking the union was an imperative for those owners who thought our labor rates were somehow inflicting great pain on their households. Our pay and benefits went down over the years of non union labor being the trade's norm, fewer young men went into that work and eventually the low pay made it a refuge for a mostly immigrant labor force. I then went on to work in a low skill unionized corporation and once again became a productive consumer of everything from cars to furniture, I'm now retired and thanks to my union and the company wisdom I have a good pension that allows me to continue that consumption instead of becoming a liability to society.

To think that there really is some kind of "self regulating" factor in American market economics is to buy into the myth that all things of a compensatory nature are in "balance", that's to say that you get what $$$ you deserve. Any study of America's labor history will surely be an eye opener for those who subscribe to this theory of a built in economic justice. Yes, you're correct when you state that all jobs cannot be equal in compensation, but, this obvious fact doesn't negate another fact, that this view often times is the prelude to the argument for less than sustaining wages. That's the bottom line in this long standing disagreement, some would offer that those on the bottom are deserving of their low wage status, this is my concern, not whether those on top make more money. It's the bottom of the American wage structure that holds us all down. Sugar or no sugar, that's a fact.

Looking back over the last fifty years of over the top U.S. GDP growth, one can see the rise in income right after the second world war as the initial economic driver, then credit overtook wages to really boost those stats, workers weren't given raises now as much as they were given a huge latitude to join in on a frenzy of debt. Skill or unskilled, unions got the wages up and more debt was now possible and thus more consumption. It was probably not the best course to take but it did make the U.S. the envy of the world. I remember when men worked in auto parts stores, gas stations, grocery, etc., and made good money, they bought a lot of stuff and that's what prosperity economics is really about. Worrying about the wages your neighbor makes as opposed to yours or anyone else's is counterproductive to the creation of the kind of super-wealth that made America a good place to live.

America was built on a notion that widely expanded prosperity was a desirable thing. "Getting ahead" shouldn't preclude those who work hard but have no apparent skill set that insures their lesser numerical status in the job market as a path to making their compensation greater. When somebody writes about"flipping hamburgers" I get the feeling that this line was chosen to point out the writers view of the lowest possible job skill imaginable, how do you reconcile that view with the fact that this is nonetheless, hard work, and hard work has it's own compensatory component, did you think that it is easy to hire good people of low skill simply because their numbers are greater than those in the skilled trades? Workers must have dignity in order to feel that their contribution is worthwhile, the boss has to pay enough to retain good help regardless of skill, So, I wouldn't lose any sleep over the wages made by the unskilled that end up in the tills of the professional class..........
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Old 12-08-2012, 04:34 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 4,242,765 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmeraldCityWanderer View Post
if people who love money are complaining they want another week in martha's vineyard, or another mansion with a 20 car garage, while people are starving in the street, or people are being killed because we cannot fund police departments, or even people getting ill from unscrupulous food producers because we cannot afford to pay inspectors then that is immoral.

as Jesus commands we take care of each other. the loving of money over other peoples lives, those we know and don't know, is a sin.



Matthew 25:34-36
The key here to your religious lesson is that charity should be a PRIVATE event: one person to another; NOT some wealth-redistribution program forced on us by the government.
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Old 12-08-2012, 06:28 PM
 
40,992 posts, read 22,274,187 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmeraldCityWanderer
if people who love money are complaining they want another week in martha's vineyard, or another mansion with a 20 car garage, while people are starving in the street, or people are being killed because we cannot fund police departments, or even people getting ill from unscrupulous food producers because we cannot afford to pay inspectors then that is immoral.

as Jesus commands we take care of each other. the loving of money over other peoples lives, those we know and don't know, is a sin.

Matthew 25:34-36
Thessalonians 3:10
For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.

God gives us certain standards that we must take into account when it comes to giving our time and money to others. When the Bible tells us we are to help others, the purpose is never for us to give to the point where it becomes detrimental. It's good to do what we're able to do, but 2 Thessalonians 3:10 also reminds us, "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."

There are people who want to live an irresponsible lifestyle with absolutely no accountability, so there must be limits. We will help someone with a need, but if it is a chronic life pattern, it's wrong for us to continue to encourage that. It's very harmful to others to contribute to their indolence, laziness, and lack of effort.

The old saying "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime" is very true. As long as we see that someone is sincerely making an effort, we should be there to support him in whatever way God leads.
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Old 12-08-2012, 06:55 PM
 
40,992 posts, read 22,274,187 times
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We are to provide for the needs of our families and we are to pay our bills. How we spend our time is also involved in stewardship; a balance of worship, work and family is important. These are all principal aspects of stewardship and cannot be neglected, so they must be considered in the decision of how and what we can do in helping others.

If, by helping someone else financially, we are unable to take care of our own debts and responsibilities, then we are not doing right in our efforts to help.
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:40 PM
 
4,130 posts, read 4,050,808 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petch751 View Post
Thessalonians 3:10
For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.

God gives us certain standards that we must take into account when it comes to giving our time and money to others. When the Bible tells us we are to help others, the purpose is never for us to give to the point where it becomes detrimental. It's good to do what we're able to do, but 2 Thessalonians 3:10 also reminds us, "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."
those were the opinion of paul of tarsus, not the words of jesus. it was where paul urges them to go on working quietly while waiting in hope for the return of christ and addressed their current situation. paul's words do not replace the words of jesus just because you like them better.

'This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me; in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.'" Matthew 15:9

i was a military Chaplin in a former part of my life. if you want to go head to head on knowledge of the bible and the word of jesus i would be happy to, but this is not the place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by petch751 View Post
There are people who want to live an irresponsible lifestyle with absolutely no accountability, so there must be limits. We will help someone with a need, but if it is a chronic life pattern, it's wrong for us to continue to encourage that. It's very harmful to others to contribute to their indolence, laziness, and lack of effort.
i hear this constantly, yet i cannot find examples of it. i spend time helping the poor in many avenues; in soup kitchens, shelters, and pantries...and i cannot find it. i see those who fight with their demons and often are laid low by them and this is not by choice. if you wish to trot out this tired old straw man that has been beaten on for 3 decades without any evidence don't expect some one who spends their time and energy following christ's word to believe you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by petch751 View Post
The old saying "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime" is very true. As long as we see that someone is sincerely making an effort, we should be there to support him in whatever way God leads.
it is an old saying but it is not the word handed down by god. i like it myself, but with many people working to cut helping people to learn to fish it is not following this. cuts to education funding, basic living assistance, and health care (especially for children) do not follow this saying or anything to help the less fortunate. it is not moral to say that children shouldn't be educated or given healthcare so some one who earns millions a year can buy another home.

if people did their private contributions to the poor the government would not need to get involved, but too many greedy people have given up their compassion for others. many wealthy have done wonderful things, like warren buffet and bill gates, but many greedy sociopaths have hidden behind selfish motives in their love of money. they were given a leg up by all of our donations to the communities, and balk at giving when it is their turn because they love their money too much to part with it.
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:56 PM
 
Location: Ohio
3,441 posts, read 5,473,300 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marksmu View Post
Pay is based on skill/intelligence/work. If you are unskilled/unintelligent/lazy - you should expect to be poor - unfortunately those unskilled/unintelligent/lazy folks have teamed up to all vote the same way - so we end up with what we have - an idiot for a President and a bunch of unskilled, dumb, lazy people with their hand out looking for someone else's money.
On THAT

The Skilled,intelligent,hard working folks have done better ?? WHEN?
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:29 AM
 
4,619 posts, read 3,686,979 times
Reputation: 14059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teak View Post
The key here to your religious lesson is that charity should be a PRIVATE event: one person to another; NOT some wealth-redistribution program forced on us by the government.
"Wealth distribution program" forced on us by the government, now that's what I'm talking about when I say that we have had enough of this redistributive tax system that takes from those hard working American's and gives it to the various banks, military contractors, automakers, and whomever else payed into the coffers of our finest on capitol hill and now expect a little favor or two, or three, or four, jeez, you're finally getting it.....
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