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Old 12-29-2012, 02:09 PM
 
Location: 3rd Rock fts
748 posts, read 1,001,975 times
Reputation: 304

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pie_row
The current macro economic environment is conducive for lower wages.
That’s right! So why do you want to interfere by manipulating wages higher?

The last 10+ years the USGovt/Taxpayer has been subsidizing wages (tax cuts/incentives for everyone) to keep purchasing power healthy—this helps Big Business/Banks! Well, it’s time for Big Business/Banks to do their part; they need to ADAPT to the natural occurrence of deflation that arises via 21st century technology & efficiency.

IMO, instead of manipulating wages higher, lowering the aggregate price of products/services and enhancing quality/warranties is a better way to go!
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Old 12-29-2012, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Central CT, sometimes NH.
3,702 posts, read 5,501,698 times
Reputation: 4026
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldl79 View Post
I see you're awake. Good on you. A collapse of the dollar and government is certainly inevitable. And with the double whammy of the fiscal cliff and debt ceiling, the acceleration of said collapse is occurring as we type. America's national debt will eclipse $17 trillion by March and I predict we'll be close to $18 trillion by the end of 2013. Add on our unfunded liabilities of $100 trillon and you have guaranteed destruction.

My frustration with America and my fellow citizens is how detached many are from the reality we now face. Many bubbles will burst just like housing and the financial market. America has indulged in self excess for too long and now it's time to pay some major deals

Oh, and don't get me started on the Federal Reserve and it's magician chairman, Uncle Ben Bernanke. He's now pulling $85 billion a month from his ass to purchase treasuries and other garbage. It is now the world's largest holder of U.S. debt. And Washington isn't interested in making tough choices to return the country to its roots.

In other words, we're already over the cliff and it's only a matter time before we crash hard. There are many sobering charts out there that tell the truth about the condition of our nation. Whether it's a massive decline in wages compared to decades ago or a trillion in student loan debt, this is not the same America we once knew. The situation here and throughout the world (with the exception of places like Canada, Iceland, etc.) is purely "day to day". I stand by the belief that a major event could happen at any time to cause a sudden implosion that will leave us all speechless and completely unprepared.
Is it snowing there? It is here. The world looks beautiful outside. I shut off the TV and went outside for a walk.

The fiscal cliff is another crisis created by opportunists with their own agendas. It's a diversion to take the spotlight off of the fact that most Americans are looking for meaningful job growth and opportunities as well as control over rising healthcare costs so the average person can just live a modest life without worrying how they're going to scrape by if they lose their job or get sick.
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:01 AM
 
621 posts, read 593,001 times
Reputation: 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
A minimum wage of $30 would create a massive distortion. A lot of companies wouldn't be able to hire at that rate.
I lived in Utah during the build up to the 2002 Olympics. We had 2% unemployment as the nation was having a recession. With effective stimulus we can get full employment with a $30 an hr minimum wage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
People would become "locked" in to jobs because supply of labor would be so far above demand by employers.
That is largely the current case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
Employers would become very powerful. Consumers would become very weak, as so few would have jobs.
That is what we have now. The combination of two things full employment and higher wages is what we need. As you have said a higher minimum wage is a tax on the economy. The people that pay that tax are those above the minimum wage. Upping it to $30 an hr would put the minimum wage above the average total compensation package or where it was several years ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post

Simply, it doesn't work to benefit the US.
If you define the US as the top 0.01% then I agree with you. If you define the US as the bottom 99% then I disagree with you. How you define things determines what you see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post

Direct payments to an HOH do not create dependency.
My Mom decided to give me $300 a month back in November of 2001. I lost my job. I lived on that money for the next 11 years. It does not create dependency. But it sure encourages it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
People don't become poor for "the benefits." Research in to the way people actually operate does not support your view.
My personal experience contradicts your reasurch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post
If the children of those families also need direct payments as parents, it is because some other function of society (eg, education) failed to do its job, not because those payments created chaining dependency.
Look at your argument. What failed the parents will also fail the children. The simplest fix is to up the bottom wages far enough to live on without any other assistance and then to get full employment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post

Direct payments do, however, keep families above the poverty line and do so efficiently.
At what cost? Who pays for this? The subsidization of part of the work force encourages work to be done that doesn't pay for itself to be done. It encourages work that isn't profitable for the economy as a whole.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post

The bottom line is direct payment go to those in "need," however need is defined, whereas minimum wages are like carpet bombing.
Or like restructuring our nations debts so that we can pay them. Personal, government and corporate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist View Post

So, you can "tax" everyone in the economy through minimum wage distortion and achieve little benefit to those working low-wage jobs, or you can target whom you tax and who receives benefits with a strong positive effect on recipients.
I've had what you are offering and I don't like what it did to my life and I don't like what it would do to the economy as a whole.


“So, you can "tax" everyone” What is your definition of everyone? A $30 an hr minimum wage would put 60~70% of the work force at the new minimum wage. With more than 50% of the workers making minimum wage then “everyone” would be making minimum wage and so the very top would pay the tax and the workers would not.




Quote:
Originally Posted by DSOs View Post
That’s right! So why do you want to interfere by manipulating wages higher?
The Fed is actively manipulating the stock market, the housing market etc. Why? To have the wages to pay for the stuff we bought on credit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSOs View Post

The last 10+ years the USGovt/Taxpayer has been subsidizing wages
Not so we have been symple printing the money to do this so it is the inflation tax that has to be paid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSOs View Post
(tax cuts/incentives for everyone) to keep purchasing power healthy—this helps Big Business/Banks!
Until the bill comes due.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSOs View Post
Well, it’s time for Big Business/Banks to do their part; they need to ADAPT to the natural occurrence of deflation that arises via 21st century technology & efficiency.
That deflation that you are talking about is the need to write off as bad 90% of the debt in th US. It may not be that high but well over 50% needs to go. The adaption that they need is called iflation. That or close the banks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSOs View Post

IMO, instead of manipulating wages higher, lowering the aggregate price of products/services and enhancing quality/warranties is a better way to go!
This multiplies the value of existing debt. With the debt at close to 400% of GDP this is the trigger for a big bank collapse or hyper inflation.
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:26 PM
 
8,277 posts, read 6,704,593 times
Reputation: 12076
Once again, our cowardly politicians failed to look to the future with the so-called "Fiscal Cliff" legislation. They raised taxes such a minute amount that it will have no impact on the budget deficit (oh wait, we don't have a budget) and it continues to increase spending. But there was plenty of celebration among the dim-witted because the politicians did "something".
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:25 AM
 
12,315 posts, read 14,338,617 times
Reputation: 18280
Quote:
Originally Posted by War Beagle View Post
Once again, our cowardly politicians failed to look to the future with the so-called "Fiscal Cliff" legislation. They raised taxes such a minute amount that it will have no impact on the budget deficit (oh wait, we don't have a budget) and it continues to increase spending. But there was plenty of celebration among the dim-witted because the politicians did "something".
Yeah, they were sure proud of themselves for no getting much done!

To address the original poster's question:

End game, the US will imitate France's genius decision to raise the top bracket of income tax from 41% to 75% on incomes over 1mm dollars.....Yeah that will fix it, tax the rich......oh wait, all the rich people moved out of France!

The history books are pre-printed on this one folks, look at Greece 2010-2012 and that will be the USA in 2020 (yep, 7 years). For those that need visualization and or facts just watch Hal Mason's youtube video below. This is the best 5 minute video I have seen on the subject.


United States Budget Dilemma.wmv - YouTube
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:41 AM
 
12,315 posts, read 14,338,617 times
Reputation: 18280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lincolnian View Post

The fiscal cliff is another crisis created by opportunists with their own agendas. It's a diversion to take the spotlight off of the fact that most Americans are looking for meaningful job growth and opportunities as well as control over rising healthcare costs so the average person can just live a modest life without worrying how they're going to scrape by if they lose their job or get sick.

Ummm....not really. Watch the above video and you will see this is a ticking time bomb that most Americans will live to see (only 7 years away). Remember back in John D. Rockefeller's time (richest man in America) he could extinguish the national debt with his personal checkbook. Now all of Bill Gate's wealth (current richest American) can only pay the interest on the National Debt for a couple of days!

Now unlike the Mayan prophecies, the "End of the World Proclamations" by Preachers.......this "fiscal cliff" is really based on math. The US Govt is simply borrowing money to pay the interest on the debt, like borrowing cash advances on your credit card so you can pay your living expenses, car payment and your minimum payment due on your other credit cards. At some point you will no longer be able to borrow more and no longer able to make the minimum payments on your credit card.......that point is rapidly approaching for the US Govt. The benefactors of this borrowing are those that are receiving entitlements whether you feel they are valid or not.

Just as a side note, it will be interesting to see what Obama thinks of this as a citizen, he will be out of office, retired from public life getting his paycheck.......what paycheck? Govt. went broke, no pay package available for him! No job skills, after all there won't be any funds to pay for a "community organizer." Private sector job? Not for the guy who bankrupted America. Everyone remembers Ken Lay (Enron fame, thousands lost everything they had), if he was alive today who would hire him? When he was running the company he was a hero, high flying stock, rapidly rising 401k statements, this guy could do nothing wrong!......until the hard facts came out and the math no longer worked.

Obama is heading for the same fame............
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:13 AM
 
Location: DEN > COS > ATL
3,799 posts, read 3,133,807 times
Reputation: 3217
How soon do you think the US will get downgraded in credit rating again to A or BBB?
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:06 PM
bg7
 
7,697 posts, read 8,923,537 times
Reputation: 15174
I don't think the OP knows what "endgame" means.
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Old 01-05-2013, 05:34 PM
 
621 posts, read 593,001 times
Reputation: 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil P View Post
How soon do you think the US will get downgraded in credit rating again to A or BBB?
That is a purely political question and so should be... JK

We are broke as a nation T bills are junk bonds. That is my opinion.
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Old 01-08-2013, 03:51 PM
 
2,553 posts, read 2,135,741 times
Reputation: 1349
Quote:
Originally Posted by pie_row View Post
I lived in Utah during the build up to the 2002 Olympics. We had 2% unemployment as the nation was having a recession. With effective stimulus we can get full employment with a $30 an hr minimum wage.
That is largely the current case.
That is what we have now. The combination of two things full employment and higher wages is what we need. As you have said a higher minimum wage is a tax on the economy. The people that pay that tax are those above the minimum wage. Upping it to $30 an hr would put the minimum wage above the average total compensation package or where it was several years ago.
If you define the US as the top 0.01% then I agree with you. If you define the US as the bottom 99% then I disagree with you. How you define things determines what you see.
My Mom decided to give me $300 a month back in November of 2001. I lost my job. I lived on that money for the next 11 years. It does not create dependency. But it sure encourages it.
My personal experience contradicts your reasurch.
Look at your argument. What failed the parents will also fail the children. The simplest fix is to up the bottom wages far enough to live on without any other assistance and then to get full employment.
At what cost? Who pays for this? The subsidization of part of the work force encourages work to be done that doesn't pay for itself to be done. It encourages work that isn't profitable for the economy as a whole.
Or like restructuring our nations debts so that we can pay them. Personal, government and corporate.
I've had what you are offering and I don't like what it did to my life and I don't like what it would do to the economy as a whole.


“So, you can "tax" everyone” What is your definition of everyone? A $30 an hr minimum wage would put 60~70% of the work force at the new minimum wage. With more than 50% of the workers making minimum wage then “everyone” would be making minimum wage and so the very top would pay the tax and the workers would not.
I rescind my previous statement. You don't seem to have a grasp on economics.

A $30/hr minimum wage would result in low employment rates/high unemployment rates. We're not talking about 10%, but more like Spanish levels of unemployment, especially among the young and the low-skilled. Without an income, any income at all, a person is absolutely worse off. Can you imagine the suffering with 25% or 50% of the labor force under 25 years old unemployed?

With many people unemployed, far above the natural rate of unemployment, a $30/hr minimum wage represents a "tax" on the whole American economy.

There's no magic going on here, no .01% math.
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