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Old 12-16-2012, 08:58 AM
 
7,060 posts, read 4,240,657 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by le roi View Post
congress can print money and make papier maché out of it if they want.

and yes , it will be support, even if they paid back everything into the program that was ever taken.
No... They can't... It's the law...

If that wasn't the law, then we wouldn't be having the fuss over it. By 2030, they either have to increase incoming funds, or cut payouts by 25%...
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Old 12-16-2012, 09:03 AM
 
5,359 posts, read 10,243,563 times
Reputation: 4374
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordSquidworth View Post
No... They can't... It's the law...

If that wasn't the law, then we wouldn't be having the fuss over it. By 2030, they either have to increase incoming funds, or cut payouts by 25%...

Like law ever gets in the way of US . . . .
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Old 12-16-2012, 09:11 AM
 
7,060 posts, read 4,240,657 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
Like law ever gets in the way of US . . . .
They can change it. But until then, law is law, and an attempt to break it will get them sued in federal court by some group, and its spelled out simple enough any judge will find in favor of the group.
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Old 12-16-2012, 02:24 PM
 
882 posts, read 1,855,411 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmeraldCityWanderer View Post
The book details it very well: How Employers Raid Pension Plans - WSJ.com

Including interviews with the author: The theft of the American pension - Salon.com

It's not news, you can find reports run since 1991: When you retire, will there be a pension waiting?

If you wish to call me a lair then you better be able to back that claim up.
No offense, but you should read links before assuming they make the same point...

Note that the WSJ piece is titled "raid", but it doesn't list what's in the OP - namely, taking funds out of an already existing pension account & spending those funds outside of wages/benefits. Using pension funds to restructure existing and future retirements, wages, and benefits isn't "raiding" anything. If that were the case then I could say I'm "raiding" my savings account when I transfer cash into checking...
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Old 12-16-2012, 03:56 PM
 
24,497 posts, read 37,121,427 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmeraldCityWanderer View Post
The book details it very well: How Employers Raid Pension Plans - WSJ.com

Including interviews with the author: The theft of the American pension - Salon.com

It's not news, you can find reports run since 1991: When you retire, will there be a pension waiting?

If you wish to call me a lair then you better be able to back that claim up.
To add on to what Jayess1 posted, none of these support your statement.
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Old 12-16-2012, 05:18 PM
 
4,130 posts, read 4,043,257 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayess1 View Post
No offense, but you should read links before assuming they make the same point...

Note that the WSJ piece is titled "raid", but it doesn't list what's in the OP - namely, taking funds out of an already existing pension account & spending those funds outside of wages/benefits. Using pension funds to restructure existing and future retirements, wages, and benefits isn't "raiding" anything. If that were the case then I could say I'm "raiding" my savings account when I transfer cash into checking...
That's a terrible analogy. The companies took pension money for their operations that were obligated to the employees, that was taken out of their paycheck, and never paid it back. That is more akin to the bank taking money out of your savings account to build an addition and never paying it back.

The links and the book are quite explicit. Enough that several states have introduced laws in order to stop this practice.
Quote:
The bill was inspired by Wall Street Journal investigative reporter Ellen Schultz’s book, Retirement Heist: How Companies Plunder and Profit from the Nest Egg of American Workers. It contains hundreds of examples of how companies have raided previously overfunded pension plans to boost earnings and provide golden parachutes to executives while eliminating pension and health benefits for average workers.
You may disagree, but that is your opinion. I am simply stating researched facts.

So far you have provided absolutely nothing to disagree with any of this, just saying no over and over...then making terrible analogies. Sorry, in the real world that only works for little children.
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Old 12-16-2012, 05:35 PM
 
22,770 posts, read 27,516,110 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordSquidworth View Post
No... They can't... It's the law...
That's ridiculous; if it was the law , SS would have stopped sending out checks years ago, Medicare would've stopped paying doctors completely. These programs keep running because we keep borrowing.

Quote:
If that wasn't the law, then we wouldn't be having the fuss over it.
You underestimate how ignorant Americans are when it comes to monetary policy, and not just your fast-food workers, I'm talking about CEO's, congressmen, and supposedly-reputable economists.


Quote:
By 2030, they either have to increase incoming funds, or cut payouts by 25%...
And they will probably increase incoming funds by running deeper deficits, like I said.
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Old 12-16-2012, 06:08 PM
 
24,497 posts, read 37,121,427 times
Reputation: 12867
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmeraldCityWanderer View Post
That's a terrible analogy. The companies took pension money for their operations that were obligated to the employees, that was taken out of their paycheck, and never paid it back. That is more akin to the bank taking money out of your savings account to build an addition and never paying it back.

The links and the book are quite explicit. Enough that several states have introduced laws in order to stop this practice.


You may disagree, but that is your opinion. I am simply stating researched facts.

So far you have provided absolutely nothing to disagree with any of this, just saying no over and over...then making terrible analogies. Sorry, in the real world that only works for little children.
I can name 100s of companies that did not raid their employees pensions....

- TIAA-CREF
- Johnson & Johnson
- BASF
- Panasonic
- IBM

Just to name a few...
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Old 12-16-2012, 08:27 PM
 
7,060 posts, read 4,240,657 times
Reputation: 6719
Quote:
Originally Posted by le roi View Post
That's ridiculous; if it was the law , SS would have stopped sending out checks years ago, Medicare would've stopped paying doctors completely. These programs keep running because we keep borrowing.
Social security has been running a surplus, they have built up funds.

Try googling it. It's all there in simplistic terms for people to easily understand... SS cannot borrow money, or spend more than it takes in or has in surplus from past years. It cannot go into debt...


Quote:
Originally Posted by EmeraldCityWanderer View Post

Hostess CEOS Take Pensions from Employees - YouTube

These are funds employees paid from their paycheck in order to contribute to their pensions, and the management that ran Hostess into bankruptcy confiscated it in order to run company operations. This violates their contract and the law. However, so far there are currently no plans to charge them with any crime. If there is not enough money in the company assets to put this money back the employees get nothing. The executives were paid bonuses after destroying the company and committing illegal actions.

It astonishes me that people wonder why corporate greed is hated in America. Tens of thousands of people are being robbed to line their pockets out of pure greed.
And to the OP...

Hostess didn't raid their pensions. The Private Equity company behind all this did. Nobody really talks about them, or the farce that is private equity.
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:29 AM
 
16,081 posts, read 21,295,925 times
Reputation: 26456
Wow...Department of Labor and a few other agencies need to be involved. This is so wrong!
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