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View Poll Results: Would going over the fiscal Cliff be good or bad.
Yes it would be good for the country. 36 72.00%
No it would not be good for the country 14 28.00%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-29-2012, 12:07 PM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,602,151 times
Reputation: 5180

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Yes you have. Every time you vote. That's the way things work in a democracy.

The government does what the majority wants it to do, for the good of the majority. When the government does what you want it to do for the good of you, it isn't called a democracy anymore, it's called a dictatorship. That's only nice when you are the dictator.
Your joking right? The government does what the elite want it to do to benefit the elite.
The voters, vote the way the television tells them to vote. They are ignorant sheep, poorly educated by the same government which decides what ideology they will be taught.
The proof of this is the current state of affairs.
The 16 trillion dollar debt which is placed squarely on the backs of the people, was money squandered to provide profit for multinational corporations including defense contractors providing for wars that the people have no say in but enrichen the elite tremendously.
The so called Free Trade Agreements, in which the people and the States had no direct say have devastated our industries and and cost the people tens of millions of jobs and lowered wages for workers in order to allow corporations to profit from exploiting foreign labor and domestic markets simultaneously giving corporate interests the best of both worlds.
The so called economic collapse has robbed the American people of Trillions of dollars which has been redistributed to the banks and to the Federal Reserve. The government has supported a policy of privatizing profit for banks and corporations while making debts public.
The Government has given corporations the right and the ability to completed control elected officials by making it "legal" to purchase those officials outright with millions and millions of bribe money, in effect nullifying completely the will of the people
The government has nullified the Bill of Rights by creating so called National Defense Authorization Act which allows government to imprison without trial, confiscate property, and even murder anyone they want without due process of law.
Democracy? Give me a break, only in the "new-speak" of Orwell's 1984 could this current government be called in any way a democracy.
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:26 PM
 
Location: NJ
28,790 posts, read 33,520,034 times
Reputation: 21093
our government isnt a democracy, jtur has no clue what he talks about. he just tries to fit everything into some silly leftist viewpoint.
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Old 12-29-2012, 04:37 PM
 
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, originally from SF Bay Area
33,513 posts, read 60,902,531 times
Reputation: 37219
If you paid attention in high school, we are a democratic republic, not a democracy. There is a big difference.

I think I can manage if forced to pay an additional 2% in taxes, though it wouldn't be my preference.
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Old 12-31-2012, 03:23 PM
 
Location: Phoenix,az
395 posts, read 743,458 times
Reputation: 322
CNN states we are headed to go over, the house will not vote today.
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Old 12-31-2012, 03:39 PM
 
Location: Bothell, Washington
2,791 posts, read 4,975,524 times
Reputation: 3966
I don't want us to go over, that would be a bad thing for just about everyone. Some of it is good, such as the military budget cuts- our military is a massive bloated monster that needs to be cut in half- even doing that much would not harm our ability to protect our nation. We just don't need bases all over the planet for OFFENSIVE military actions, that is where the massive spending seems to be coming in (as well as the actual ridiculous wars we have been getting involved in). Outside of that waste needs to be cut, tax loopholes for corporations and people need to be closed and some taxes need to be raised, within reason.
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Old 12-31-2012, 04:08 PM
 
Location: Northern Appalachia
6,439 posts, read 7,301,729 times
Reputation: 7811
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ View Post
our government isnt a democracy, jtur has no clue what he talks about. he just tries to fit everything into some silly leftist viewpoint.
Our government is a modified representative democracy. How would you classify it?
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Old 12-31-2012, 04:14 PM
 
Location: NJ
28,790 posts, read 33,520,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
Our government is a modified representative democracy. How would you classify it?
did you make that phrase up yourself?

we are a republic. like what marcus aurelius wanted rome to become in the movie gladiator.
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Old 12-31-2012, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Northern Appalachia
6,439 posts, read 7,301,729 times
Reputation: 7811
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
The GOP won about 234 of 435 House seats up for election. Democrats gained approximately 9 seats in the election and won approximately 201. That's the result that's important because it dictates what party controls the House.

However, if you look at the percentage of voters in the USA who voted for a democrat as compared to a republican House member than this is what you'd see:

49.1 percent voted democrat

48.1 percent voted republican

2.3 percent voted for a third party or independent candidate.

In essence, while the GOP controls the House, it didn't win the support of a majority, or even a plurality, of those voting for a Congressman. The reason the GOP could do this and win a majority of seats is because of the way congressional districts are gerrymandered by the political party that controls a state legislature. Since more legislatures were controlled in 2011 by the GOP than by democrats, the GOP was able to obtain control of more seats.

You can tell me that this is the way "the system works" and I won't argue that point. I will argue the point that the GOP victory in terms of winning a majority of the House seats represents the will of the American people. It clearly does not and democrat victories (by real majorities) in the Senate and in the race for the Presidency demonstrate that fact. Public opinion polls strongly suggest that the majority of people want higher taxes on wealthier economic groups along with realistic budget cuts.

People like Grover Norquist and the Tea Party shouldn't dictate the outcome of this process. I hope Congress can arrive at a compromise that includes both budget cuts and tax increases for the wealthiest groups. Honestly, if it can't than I favor going over the cliff.

United States House of Representatives elections, 2012 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Eliminating Congressional district gerrymandering would do more than anything else to prevent the gridlock in the House and limit the terms of Congressmen who continue to be reelected every two years. The Fiscal Cliff would have probably been worked out in a compromise long before Dec. 31st if it wasn't for gerrymandering.

We have very few contested Congressional elections and it is getting worse. Congressmen worry more about getting reelected than doing what is best for the country. A good example of gerrymandering is what happened to the Pennsylvania 12th Congressional District. Click on this link to see how it changed from 2010 to 2012.

Pennsylvania’s 12th Congressional District - Representatives & District Map - GovTrack.us

Both districts are good examples of gerrymandering. What is wrong with having a Congressional District cover basically the same geographic area after redistricting? Why should rural counties be split up and even worse is when small towns and even zip codes are split between two districts. Many of the people in the PA 12th District were unaware of who they would be voting for before they arrived at the polls last November. Most were unaware that they had been switched from one district to another. This district has a long history of gerrymandering.

Six states (Arizona, California, Hawaii, Idaho, New Jersey and Washington), carry out congressional redistricting by an independent or bipartisan commission.
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Old 12-31-2012, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Michigan
2,198 posts, read 2,384,360 times
Reputation: 2092
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ View Post
most government spending isnt "money for those who need it most" its waste
cutting spending modestly isnt going to do anything to reduce our budget deficit.

our politicians now seem to like to talk in 10 year numbers. so lets say we have the 2012 deficity of $1.1 trillion. thats $11 trillion deficit over 10 years, that gets added to the current debt that is above $16 trilion. so i believe the republicans are proposing $2.5 trillion in spending cuts over 10 years, when we need to make up an $11 trillion deficit. so that leaves $8.5 trillion in added debt. how is that supposed to be made up???????

the republicans arent proposing nearly enough spending cuts to make a dent in our debt.
We don't have to cut the whole amount of the projected deficit though. As the economy continues to recover tax revenues will increase and a lot of the automatic spending increases due to the weak economy (welfare, unemployment insurance, etc.) will decrease. And as the GDP increases the high nominal debt number will become less of a problem as the ratio of debt/GDP decreases (hopefully). If we have a $17 trillion debt in 2022 we will likely be in pretty decent shape because the GDP then will likely be around $25 trillion. 17/25= ~70%.

Moderate cuts, limits on new spending, small tax increases, and a stronger economy can easily close the gap. We don't need to close it all with immediate spending cuts.
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Old 12-31-2012, 10:57 PM
 
13 posts, read 13,533 times
Reputation: 23
There is no "cliff".. just a long, slow, relentless decline that is the proper result of profligate spending fueled by hugely expensive promises to an electorate that can, and has been bought by the highest bidder at every turn. If I were a believer I would pray to whatever god I raised up to PLEASE LET THE WAGES OF SIN FALL UPON US AT LAST.
But I don't believe in any gods, so I will place my hope in the gridlock that may propel us into a cruel, but truthful reality.

Yeah, man. I say LET 'ER RIP!
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