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Old 01-05-2013, 07:58 AM
 
31,025 posts, read 37,008,009 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshawg1 View Post
Good ole' teabaggers in the House GOP screwing up everything again. Yes, we need entitlement reform, but letting the payroll tax go back up does nothing.

I want social security to be there, but playing chicken with the debt limit is insane. I envision the House GOP being similar to the banjo-playing scene in Deliverance.
What does the payroll tax not be extending have to do with the debt limit discussion from this point forward? The payroll tax has not been extended and we still are just now getting into the meat of the debt limit discussion. How many Democrats stood up advocating for extension of the payroll tax holiday?
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:59 AM
 
19,337 posts, read 16,934,141 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
What does the payroll tax not be extending have to do with the debt limit discussion from this point forward? The payroll tax has not been extended and we still are just now getting into the meat of the debt limit discussion. How many Democrats stood up advocating for extension of the payroll tax holiday?
Both of them let it slide and here is what is happening. One man at the bar had 3 beers on his beer budget. Another man had 2 beers on his beer budget and 1 beer on his home repair budget and put in a beer budget IOU into the home repair budget. How many beers did each have? What is the difference in behavior? There are 2 men having 3 beers. FICA and Federal taxes are a shell game like no other. First they say employers pay half which is again a lie. Then they say FICA is an investment when all it does is increase the governments buying power while decreasing that of that of labor's.

Now what about the IOU? Well, since my theory tells me that governments print money when ever they go into debt, the FICA withholding buying government bonds means more government spending power and not worker spending power. If the government does not spend it on industry or spend it at all, it will contribute to the lack of demand for the same reason why hungry slaves don't do much for food demand for lack of buying power everywhere else.

The Feds will never pay off the debt. Its the money supply whether is fungible interest bearing bonds or Federal Reserve Notes. No one feels poorer only having bonds. So what you have to do is look at the behavior now because the financing is nothing but book keeping from someone who changes the numbers at will.

They raised taxes for no good reason so that banks can make their usury profits and drink as much beer, fart , throw darts and hit on the waitress like they always have.

If we had a private financial system that worked and actually mobilized our labor an industry instead of loading us up with unproductive debts that can't be paid, I might like more taxes if we are spending on scarce luxuries when we need infrastructure. Now, the private sector isn't going to put it to use. I also know based upon Obama's last administration he will not be putting idle capacity to use either. So we are going to just sit here + 2%.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:19 AM
 
706 posts, read 1,202,027 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
What does the payroll tax not be extending have to do with the debt limit discussion from this point forward? The payroll tax has not been extended and we still are just now getting into the meat of the debt limit discussion. How many Democrats stood up advocating for extension of the payroll tax holiday?

It was in the president's plan if you followed all the events along with more stimulus.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:21 AM
 
706 posts, read 1,202,027 times
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One thing republicans hate more than Obama are facts..Obama wanted to extend the payroll tax cut, republicans opposed it:

Payroll Tax Cut: Some Republicans Willing To Back Obama's Proposal
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:25 AM
 
706 posts, read 1,202,027 times
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I must say one thing that makes my blood boileople that are upset over the financial bailout. I am sure it is easy to sit back home in Kentucky and get upset over the bailout, but the truth of the matter is if Bush didn't do what he did, we might be all crawling on our knees looking for food and grabbing a gun to defend what possessions we have left from looters.

I am not a Bush fan, but he had no choice. That is what is comical about the Tea Party. The one event you can point to cause their rise in popularity is based on something absurdly false. Sure, we could have let banks fail and the financial system and all people's retirement savings to go to zero to prove a point, but we are civilized so Paulson recommended what had to be done, there was no other choice.

If your only possessions are moonshine and guns, I guess you have nothing to lose
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:04 PM
 
31,025 posts, read 37,008,009 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshawg1 View Post
It was in the president's plan if you followed all the events along with more stimulus.
I did it was a lip service starting point to appeal to the progressives and to bargain away. Extending it made no sense and had little support from mainstream economist. It was a one year stop gap measure and meant to stay that way. Economist in the administration had talked about the chain cpi index a few years ago and Obama offered it as a chip not for now but for the fiscal cliff negotiations. He has set the stage for folks to deal with it and talk about it. Obama initially was surrounded by Behavior Economist which is very strong at the University of Chicago. Now he is surrounded by. The Roth conversion that is part of the package is a short term maneuver for immediate benefit now and possible pain in the out years. The scare tactics about capital gains being increased worked as many companies gave this years last year which will just increase 2012 tax revenues and make it seem like the budget deficit is not as bad as it really is. Again a short term benefit depriving us of revenues moving forward. Don't assume I consider more stimulus to be a good thing. I remember the coach saying no pain no gain!
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:13 PM
 
31,025 posts, read 37,008,009 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshawg1 View Post
One thing republicans hate more than Obama are facts..Obama wanted to extend the payroll tax cut, republicans opposed it:

Payroll Tax Cut: Some Republicans Willing To Back Obama's Proposal
Payroll Tax Cut: Some Republicans Willing To Back Obama's Proposal

Quote:
Many Republicans - along with some senior Democrats - oppose the extension, in part because it funds the Social Security retirement program.


Quote:
SOCIAL SECURITY

The Social Security fund is on track to start going bankrupt in 2033 and Democrats and Republicans agree that the program has to be altered to ensure that retirees are not left without pension checks.

Representative Steven LaTourette, a moderate Republican from Ohio, said he would be open to a payroll tax extension if it was part of a package that would include a minimum of $4 trillion in deficit reduction over 10 years.
In the Senate, Republicans Rob Portman of Ohio and Jon Kyl of Arizona also did not rule it out and said support of an extension would depend on the final deal. "Everything depends on what's in the package and how it all works together," Kyl said.
So was Obama serious when he wouldn't offer the specific reductions in spending and changes in SS to get a consensus on extending the tax holiday? Or was it more campaign style smoke screening? Up to the individual I guess. Am I correct you are willing to allow more stress on the stability of SS or are you supporting raising the retirement age? Please don't start the lifting the cap as that is just more taxation and wealth transfer.
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:04 PM
 
31,025 posts, read 37,008,009 times
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We now have to see how the push to increase taxes will play on the ability of state and local government to raise taxes to deal with projected budget deficits. Probably won't help to motivate states to expand their Medicaid programs and to raise state taxes to assist the low income in their states. There are limits and perhaps even more state governments will turn red.
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Old 01-06-2013, 07:40 AM
 
11,011 posts, read 10,605,748 times
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Tuborg correctly classifies the payroll tax holiday as a "one year temporary measure". That was the absolute intention of both Congress and the President when it was enacted.

What some people never seem to get is that tax policies are deliberately changed depending upon the economic health and vitality of a country. Low taxes put more dollars in the hands of consumers and spending helps move an economy a little bit upward. The term for this is "economic stimulus". Anyone who is naive enough to believe that this cut in payroll taxes was supposed to be permanent is a sad customer, indeed. For that matter, the economy is such that no tax cut (or increase) can be treated as permanent. Conditions change and there is always a need to change tax policy to reflect that fact.

Many of us struggled with this tax cut at the time because the Social Security Trust Fund needed the money to help meet future claims for retirement benefits. I went along with it precisely because the economy was in such jeopardy when it was enacted that I felt something temporary needed to be done to stimulate spending. Anyway, the economy is far from recovered, but its clearly doing better. So, its time to return the tax to its previous level.

Those who oppose the restoration of this tax fit into at least one of these categories:

1. They are quite blissfully ignorant of the need to put the extra dollars into the Social Security Trust Fund to meet future claims and obligations.

2. They want to see the demise or the end of Social Security.

3. They are so wrapped up in "today" that they cannot plan in any responsible way for tomorrow.

4. They can't do simple mathematics.
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Old 01-06-2013, 08:00 AM
 
31,025 posts, read 37,008,009 times
Reputation: 13315
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
Tuborg correctly classifies the payroll tax holiday as a "one year temporary measure". That was the absolute intention of both Congress and the President when it was enacted.

What some people never seem to get is that tax policies are deliberately changed depending upon the economic health and vitality of a country. Low taxes put more dollars in the hands of consumers and spending helps move an economy a little bit upward. The term for this is "economic stimulus". Anyone who is naive enough to believe that this cut in payroll taxes was supposed to be permanent is a sad customer, indeed. For that matter, the economy is such that no tax cut (or increase) can be treated as permanent. Conditions change and there is always a need to change tax policy to reflect that fact.

Many of us struggled with this tax cut at the time because the Social Security Trust Fund needed the money to help meet future claims for retirement benefits. I went along with it precisely because the economy was in such jeopardy when it was enacted that I felt something temporary needed to be done to stimulate spending. Anyway, the economy is far from recovered, but its clearly doing better. So, its time to return the tax to its previous level.

Those who oppose the restoration of this tax fit into at least one of these categories:

1. They are quite blissfully ignorant of the need to put the extra dollars into the Social Security Trust Fund to meet future claims and obligations.

2. They want to see the demise or the end of Social Security.

3. They are so wrapped up in "today" that they cannot plan in any responsible way for tomorrow.

4. They can't do simple mathematics.
Dada Bing would rep you again if I could
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