U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-07-2013, 04:10 PM
 
12,627 posts, read 14,832,992 times
Reputation: 18901

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
Why do you think people will not get social security payments? Its not a fiscal or solvency issue. There is no financial issue at all. The issue is a political one. It is also dependent upon what the buying power of the payment will have.


All we need is a pay-as-you-go retirement system as a transfer payment more akin to welfare that is linked to the demographic, not age. Set a sustainable worker to retiree ratio like 4 or 5 workers to 1 retiree and pay out for basic food and housing. Tossing old people out on the street will destroy the country. Who would want to live and work here or join the army? However it can't be 1 to 1 ratios with 30 year retirements which is what SS was turning into.

All this pseudo saving up for the future is just an unnecessary tax since I see nothing on the supply side for it.
ummm....no.

US doesn't collect enough tax to cover the costs of running the govt which is the military, the entitlement programs and cover the interest on the money it already borrows. Assume at some point in the near future (10 years +/-) that no one will buy US bonds (the source of the funding for the over-spending). At that point, the SS checks don't go out, the govt welfare checks don't go out, the govt. employee wage checks don't go out........Look at the turmoil Greece recently suffered when they were forced to beg for (borrow) money from the European Union.

Take 5 mins and watch this video and then post your response:

United States Budget Dilemma.wmv - YouTube
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-07-2013, 04:11 PM
 
12,627 posts, read 14,832,992 times
Reputation: 18901
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
Not mine. I am only 49. I will never see any social security payout. However it is funding my Dad's retirement and several older friend's. My brother is getting panicky over this. He is in his 50s and has no retirement. No pension, no 401K and it looks like he will not get social security. My plan is to work until I die, but he may not be able to. His work is physical and he has some stiffness issues already. I do not think he has any long term disability insurance. I guess he could get welfare if he has to retire. He already lives without gas or electricity (heats with kerosene and uses a propane powered fridge). He may end up better off with welfare. Maybe welfare is the new retirement plan for some people.

For our family the ss increase s a couple of hundred dollars a month less per check. Because of the recession, and constantly declining pay (I am making just over half of 2008 salary), we have cut and cut. I am not sure where we are going to cut another $200/month, but we will figure it out. There are some other new taxes or fees or whatever people want to call them (money leaving my check and going to government coffers - call it whatever makes you feel better. To me it is taxes by a different name). I am not sure of the full impact yet. Definitely a downturn in our income.

On the plus side, we may now qualify for some tax credits we could not get when our income was higher.

Lots of people are going to be in the same situation as your brother. Don't forget that if you didn't pay your student loans that the govt. can withhold a portion of your SS check also!
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-07-2013, 04:37 PM
 
19,346 posts, read 17,024,390 times
Reputation: 7519
Quote:
Originally Posted by City Guy997S View Post
ummm....no.

US doesn't collect enough tax to cover the costs of running the govt which is the military, the entitlement programs and cover the interest on the money it already borrows. Assume at some point in the near future (10 years +/-) that no one will buy US bonds (the source of the funding for the over-spending). At that point, the SS checks don't go out, the govt welfare checks don't go out, the govt. employee wage checks don't go out........Look at the turmoil Greece recently suffered when they were forced to beg for (borrow) money from the European Union.

Take 5 mins and watch this video and then post your response:

United States Budget Dilemma.wmv - YouTube
Um no, the government prints money when it goes into debt. The entire money supply is IOU money printed from the government. Go ask for your specie on your "Note" and see what they say. There is no revenue needed. The only side effect is a growing money supply which has varying effects on the real supply of goods and services. Look up the word Note in an economics book. It means debt. At some point if they go beyond the capacity to produce, and if they refuse to tax an economy at capacity you get inflation.

To compare Greece and the Lisbon treaty to the US money system means you have absolutely nothing useful in any conceivable way to add to the conversation. May as well talk about comic books.


The Fed can always "buy the bonds" as if it mattered. All that matters is a legal authority that is willing and able to tax an economic zone where people want stuff. Admittedly we are less able to provide stuff people want as we continue to shut down out industry due to these fiscal mythologies of austerity as if halting trade and consumption is prosperity and that real estate is a product. That is the economic system of a cemetery.

The only debt problem is the private debt problem driving up all our costs and the foreign debt problem because we are driving up all out costs.

Trade Theory Financialized | Michael Hudson

These transfer payments to the FIRE sector and government agencies have transformed international cost structures, absorbing roughly 75% of U.S. family budgets. This helps explain the deteriorating U.S. industrial trade balance as the economy has become financialized.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-07-2013, 05:04 PM
 
Location: 3rd Rock fts
750 posts, read 1,007,833 times
Reputation: 304
Default TAG: Tulips, History repeating itself

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1
Nothing in finance and basic economics has changed because people haven't changed...
Absolutely correct! Bailing out the reckless debtors goes hand-in-hand with bailing out the reckless financial apparatus!—so stop using tax cuts to bail out the debtors! The financial apparatus creates/entices spendthrift behavior, which makes debtors TBTF—this has got to stop NOW!

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1
If the deficits stay high then we will grind out 1-2% if we don't have an economic shock. . If they cut them then recession within months.
Only the Big Business/FIRE community would say “grind out 1-2% growth”. The USA’s growth has been too exuberant/frivolous for too long! An appropriate growth level is needed to heal the Economy. Reckless deficit spending is perpetuating the claw-forward growth that’s making the .01% fraudulently powerful & the USGov’t/Taxpayers vulnerably indebted!

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1
What will materially appear by FICA withholding? FICA withholding takes buying power away from labor.
More importantly, FICA takes buying power away from reckless FIRE/Big Business. The Economy is not working for the ~99%; the citizenry endures lower wages but there’s no matching lower costs/prices. It’s time to starve the FIRE/Big Business beast—they need to be weaned off the elixir of moral hazard & stop relying on exponential inflation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1
They raised taxes for no good reason so that banks can make their usury profits...
I may be stating this out of context, but my understanding is the Banksters (& Big Business) don’t like it when the USGov’t taxes its citizens. Sorry for piling on gwynedd1, but you keep defending the savvy debtors; they are the ones’ who are enabling irresponsible economics.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-07-2013, 05:18 PM
 
19,346 posts, read 17,024,390 times
Reputation: 7519
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSOs View Post
Absolutely correct! Bailing out the reckless debtors goes hand-in-hand with bailing out the reckless financial apparatus!—so stop using tax cuts to bail out the debtors! The financial apparatus creates/entices spendthrift behavior, which makes debtors TBTF—this has got to stop NOW!
The only thing worse than bailing out the debtors was bailing out the creditors. The debtors, flawed though they may be, are typically the producer classes.


Quote:
Only the Big Business/FIRE community would say “grind out 1-2% growth”. The USA’s growth has been too exuberant/frivolous for too long! An appropriate growth level is needed to heal the Economy. Reckless deficit spending is perpetuating the claw-forward growth that’s making the .01% fraudulently powerful & the USGov’t/Taxpayers vulnerably indebted!
Nothing will grow green until banks die. They are now the effective government so...


Quote:
More importantly, FICA takes buying power away from reckless FIRE/Big Business. The Economy is not working for the ~99%; the citizenry endures lower wages but there’s no matching lower costs/prices. It’s time to starve the FIRE/Big Business beast—they need to be weaned off the elixir of moral hazard & stop relying on exponential inflation.
Its a direct tax and working. If you work, you are taxed and discouraged. Its even worse than VAT as amazing as it is.

Electric shock treatment for working!
Water board treatment for production !
Wake up early with a cold shower and be beaten on the soles of your feet.!

That it?


Quote:
I may be stating this out of context, but my understanding is the Banksters (& Big Business) don’t like it when the USGov’t taxes its citizens. Sorry for piling on gwynedd1, but you keep defending the savvy debtors; they are the ones’ who are enabling irresponsible economics.

Correct. They don't like when the government taxes its citizens. They prefer their income to be pledged as interest payments. Taxes means that the government is getting the money before they do. However you can destory the same government maintaining your credit monopoly so the workers do need to keep running the prisons.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-07-2013, 05:55 PM
 
Location: 3rd Rock fts
750 posts, read 1,007,833 times
Reputation: 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1
The only thing worse than bailing out the debtors was bailing out the creditors. The debtors, flawed though they may be, are typically the producer classes.
You’re not understanding me; you have to go through the reckless debtors to get to the reckless creditors! Producing via debt-driven consumerism is phantom prosperity; it’s all there in the history books.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-07-2013, 08:04 PM
 
12,627 posts, read 14,832,992 times
Reputation: 18901
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
Um no, the government prints money when it goes into debt. The entire money supply is IOU money printed from the government. Go ask for your specie on your "Note" and see what they say. There is no revenue needed. The only side effect is a growing money supply which has varying effects on the real supply of goods and services. Look up the word Note in an economics book. It means debt. At some point if they go beyond the capacity to produce, and if they refuse to tax an economy at capacity you get inflation.

To compare Greece and the Lisbon treaty to the US money system means you have absolutely nothing useful in any conceivable way to add to the conversation. May as well talk about comic books.


The Fed can always "buy the bonds" as if it mattered. All that matters is a legal authority that is willing and able to tax an economic zone where people want stuff. Admittedly we are less able to provide stuff people want as we continue to shut down out industry due to these fiscal mythologies of austerity as if halting trade and consumption is prosperity and that real estate is a product. That is the economic system of a cemetery.

The only debt problem is the private debt problem driving up all our costs and the foreign debt problem because we are driving up all out costs.

Trade Theory Financialized | Michael Hudson

These transfer payments to the FIRE sector and government agencies have transformed international cost structures, absorbing roughly 75% of U.S. family budgets. This helps explain the deteriorating U.S. industrial trade balance as the economy has become financialized.


Ummmm....ok using your theory then: Why couldn't Greece just print more money to fix their "shortage?"

Also in your theory would you consider someone that could get a cash advance on their credit card rich? They can go get $10,000 on a whim, but at some point what if their lender/bond holder decides they are a bad risk for default?
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-07-2013, 10:46 PM
 
19,346 posts, read 17,024,390 times
Reputation: 7519
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSOs View Post
You’re not understanding me; you have to go through the reckless debtors to get to the reckless creditors! Producing via debt-driven consumerism is phantom prosperity; it’s all there in the history books.

No, you simply let the creditor collect on their bankrupted debtors like back in 2008. If they fail then run them until you find solvent owners. Instead we bailed them out while they got to take that money and make even more of a killing buying at distressed prices. Your plan will not work if we keep "saving the banks."

If unemployment started getting scary then da guberment can certainly replace the garbage credit the banks were producing. They could just pass it out and do as well as the banks were doing.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-07-2013, 11:00 PM
 
19,346 posts, read 17,024,390 times
Reputation: 7519
Quote:
Originally Posted by City Guy997S View Post
Ummmm....ok using your theory then: Why couldn't Greece just print more money to fix their "shortage?"
OK I realize not everyone spent the time to read the Lisbon treaty. Under that treaty no sovereign can monetize debt. Greece has no sovereign currency. As it is they may as well owe Germany Deutch marks . They can't print Euros.


Quote:
Also in your theory would you consider someone that could get a cash advance on their credit card rich? They can go get $10,000 on a whim, but at some point what if their lender/bond holder decides they are a bad risk for default?
Are they the sovereign? Do you realize the debt of your Don is like money?

If you don't know how IOU currency works and in particular the IOUs of the sovereign, you are not going to understand much about what is going on. Marx said it very well here:
The public debt becomes one of the most powerful levers of primitive accumulation. As with the stroke of an enchanter's wand, it endows barren money with the power of breeding and thus turns it into capital, without the necessity of its exposing itself to the troubles and risks inseparable from its employment in industry or even in usury. The state-creditors actually give nothing away, for the sum lent is transformed into public bonds, easily negotiable, which go on functioning in their hands just as so much hard cash would. But further, apart from the class of lazy annuitants thus created, and from the improvised wealth of the financiers, middlemen between the government and the nation—as also apart from the tax farmers, merchants, private manufacturers, to whom a good part of every national loan renders the service of a capital fallen from heaven—the national debt has given rise to jointstock companies, to dealings in negotiable effects of all kinds, and to agiotage, in a word to stock-exchange gambling and the modern bankocracy.

Sovereign debt is money. Now that "Notes" are not even convertible its the only money there is. That is the national debt is the money supply. No debt, no money.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-07-2013, 11:15 PM
 
4,661 posts, read 3,253,384 times
Reputation: 2958
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
Yeah I do believe in trickle down if you are willing to accept the drip. Many folks aren't and would rather fight the system instead of participating in it. We each have to decide and it really is truly more than the top one percent who are prospering a lot more. I just wish pundits would spend more time trying to teach and help the middle class with wealth accumulation instead of consumption. We could do so much more for people if we encouraged intergenerational wealth accumulation and supported the traditional family structure more so it could take hold again. Did the president ever try to see if he could get the Republicans on board for letting the Bush tax cuts expire for everyone and not just those above a certain income level. Now what was the problem with the sequester again? Was it a short term or long term problem/solution.
Have you seen the statistics on this?

"In 2007 the richest 1% of the American population owned 34.6% of the country's total wealth, and the next 19% owned 50.5%. Thus, the top 20% of Americans owned 85% of the country's wealth and the bottom 80% of the population owned 15%."

"The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) has estimated that extending the Bush tax cuts of 2001-2003 beyond their 2010 expiration would increase deficits by $1.8 trillion dollars over the following decade."

"The richest quintile of Americans owns 93% of non-home wealth. For Americans with incomes over $10 million, nearly half of their income comes from capital gains and dividends, on most of which they pay only a 15% tax. From 2002 to 2007, two-thirds of all income went to the richest 1%. Then, in the first year after the recession, a startling 93% of all new income went to the richest 1%."

Apparently, trickle down means we give tax cuts that disproportionately build massive wealth for the rich while middle class incomes flat line. Then, we wait for the wealthy to toss middle America a bone; In the meantime we build a huge national debt and protect those who benefit the most from having to help pay down the bill.

That trickle must be some sort of Koolaid!

Regarding the part in red, have you been following the GOPs position on taxes? If so, you would not have asked that question.


Last edited by shaker281; 01-07-2013 at 11:28 PM..
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:54 AM.

© 2005-2021, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top