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Old 01-03-2013, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,068 posts, read 76,108,114 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish Forbes View Post
I call bull**** -- let's see the numbers, year by year. As for "living off the interest" from $500K in the bank -- do you have any idea of what interest rates are today? She would be lucky to be drawing $5000 per year from $500K in the bank. Dividends on the S&P 500 are a little more than 2%, which would give Mom about 11,000 per year.
Big business is behind the anti-SS bandwagon here telling people to cut it and get rid of it and convincing them that it's outdated and won't be there for them. Problem is they are not saying what will be there for them when they retire.
Win/win for them since that means they no longer have to pay FICA..probably get rid of UE as well.

One step closer in the quest for that global workforce.

I say people need to fight to keep FICA and SS and we need to increase the percentage paid into it and remove the cap.
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:34 PM
Status: "ABCDEFGplus" (set 9 days ago)
 
18,799 posts, read 16,672,291 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish Forbes View Post
What on earth are you trying to say? Who is hitting whom with a hammer? What does "squat" mean? What, exactly, is a "body blow" to the economy? FICA raises a huge amount of money to fund the SS programs. Money is a store of value for the future; that's fundamental to the concept of money.

Not what you are. A root cellar with carrots, beets ,and potatoes is a store of value. Money is a puter entry or mattress stuffing debt instrument. We now use soft money and da guberment can and does what ever idiotic thing it wants to do. Only now we have 2% less decision making power from consumers. Now we can fund more central planning What labor and capital will now be mobilized to create this retirement infrastructure? Letting this rise will pound the economy.


My references are impeccable.
A direct tax upon the wages of labour, therefore, though the labourer might perhaps pay it out of his hand, could not properly be said to be even advanced by him; at least if tile demand for labour and the average price of provisions remained the same after the tax as before it. In all such cases, not only the tax but something more than the tax would in reality be advanced by the person who immediately employed him. The final payment would in different cases fall upon different persons. The rise which such a tax might occasion in the wages of manufacturing labour would be advanced by the master manufacturer, who would both be entitled and obliged to charge it, with a profit, upon the price of his goods. The final payment of this rise of wages, therefore, together with the additional profit of the master manufacturer, would fall upon the consumer. The rise which such a tax might occasion in the wages of country labour would be advanced by the farmer, who, in order to maintain the same number of labourers as before, would be obliged to employ a greater capital. In order to get back this greater capital, together with the ordinary profits of stock, it would be necessary that he should retain a larger portion, or what comes to the same thing, the price of a larger portion, of the produce of the land, and consequently that he should pay less rent to the landlord. The final payment of this rise of wages, therefore, would in this case fall upon the landlord, together with the additional profit of the farmer who had advanced it. In all cases a direct tax upon the wages of labour must, in the long-run, occasion both a greater reduction in the rent of land, and a greater rise in the price of manufactured goods, than would have followed from the proper assessment of a sum equal to the produce of the tax partly upon the rent of land, and partly upon consumable commodities.
If direct taxes upon the wages of labour have not always occasioned a proportionable rise in those wages, it is because they have generally occasioned a considerable fall in the demand for labour. The declension of industry, the decrease of employment for the poor, the diminution of the annual produce of the land and labour of the country, have generally been the effects of such taxes. In consequence of them, however, the price of labour must always be higher than it otherwise would have been in the actual state of the demand: and this enhancement of price, together with the profit of those who advance it, must always be finally paid by the landlords and consumers.
A tax upon the wages of country labour does not raise the price of the rude produce of land in proportion to the tax, for the same reason that a tax upon the farmer's profit does not raise that price in that proportion.



Adam Smith.




For soft money theory we are now using since our money ceased being convertible try Knapp:

State Theory of Money - P2P Foundation


Maybe you will hit yourself in the head not so much.

Last edited by gwynedd1; 01-03-2013 at 01:43 PM..
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:40 PM
Status: "ABCDEFGplus" (set 9 days ago)
 
18,799 posts, read 16,672,291 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
Big business is behind the anti-SS bandwagon here telling people to cut it and get rid of it and convincing them that it's outdated and won't be there for them. Problem is they are not saying what will be there for them when they retire.
Win/win for them since that means they no longer have to pay FICA..probably get rid of UE as well.

One step closer in the quest for that global workforce.

I say people need to fight to keep FICA and SS and we need to increase the percentage paid into it and remove the cap.

And then there is the "pay-as-you-go" side of the argument. All social security is is a transfer payment that will be as good as the productive output of the current economy. A "return" 30 years from now? How does anyone figure that? Taxing basic labor will now raise the cost structure and break even point causing unemployment, rising prices and labor arbitrage to cheaper labor off shore. The FICA withholding and the benefit have no real link at all. FICA withholding is regressive taxation that just creates high cost economies.

I am certainly against this "fund" going into Wall Street which is what the anti-SS movement is about. I am anti-FICA withholding.
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:45 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 3,751,943 times
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Gwyn -- your reference to Adam Smith has virtually nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Also, it is full of qualifiers; perhaps you didn't want to see these. Moreover, he is speaking about conditions in the 18th century, when commerce was dominated by farmers and craftsmen, and not the 21st, when commerce is dominated by international corporations and FIRE. His work, although great for its time, is completely obsolete today except for its entertainment value -- that's why we had economists in the 19th and 20th centuries, and now the 21st. By the way, I never hit myself -- you're the one who brought that up . . .
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:48 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 3,751,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
Big business is behind the anti-SS bandwagon here telling people to cut it and get rid of it and convincing them that it's outdated and won't be there for them. Problem is they are not saying what will be there for them when they retire.
Win/win for them since that means they no longer have to pay FICA..probably get rid of UE as well.

One step closer in the quest for that global workforce.

I say people need to fight to keep FICA and SS and we need to increase the percentage paid into it and remove the cap.
Exactly -- it never ceases to amaze me how many people fall for their lies and half-truths!
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:55 PM
Status: "ABCDEFGplus" (set 9 days ago)
 
18,799 posts, read 16,672,291 times
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America

There is no more need to save in advance for Social Security than there is to save in advance to pay for war. Selling Treasury bonds to pay for retirees has the identical monetary and fiscal effect of selling newly printed securities. It is a charade – to shift the tax burden onto labor and industry. Governments need to provide the economy with money and credit to expand markets and employment. They do this by running budget deficits, and this can be done by creating their own money. That is what banks oppose, accusing it of leading to hyperinflation rather than help economies grow.

No kidding. In both WWI and WWII they just printed up government obligations and created massive wealth destroying infrastructure known as war production. We need to "save" for retirement but not for the F-35.


Taxes pay for the cost of government by withdrawing income from the parties being taxed. From Adam Smith through John Stuart Mill to the Progressive Era, general agreement emerged that the most appropriate taxes should not fall on labor, capital or on sales of basic consumer needs. Such taxes raise the break-even cost of employing labor. In today’s world, FICA wage withholding for Social Security raises the price that employers must pay their work force to maintain living standards and buy the products they produce.
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:57 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 3,751,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
Not what you are. A root cellar with carrots, beets ,and potatoes is a store of value. Money is a puter entry or mattress stuffing debt instrument. We now use soft money and da guberment can and does what ever idiotic thing it wants to do. Only now we have 2% less decision making power from consumers. Now we can fund more central planning What labor and capital will now be mobilized to create this retirement infrastructure? Letting this rise will pound the economy.
You know, there's theoretical nonsense, and then there's the real world that most of us live in. What do you mean by "pound." Any numbers? Give us your prediction.
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:08 PM
Status: "ABCDEFGplus" (set 9 days ago)
 
18,799 posts, read 16,672,291 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish Forbes View Post
Gwyn -- your reference to Adam Smith has virtually nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Also, it is full of qualifiers; perhaps you didn't want to see these. Moreover, he is speaking about conditions in the 18th century, when commerce was dominated by farmers and craftsmen, and not the 21st, when commerce is dominated by international corporations and FIRE. His work, although great for its time, is completely obsolete today except for its entertainment value -- that's why we had economists in the 19th and 20th centuries, and now the 21st. By the way, I never hit myself -- you're the one who brought that up . . .
Yes is does. Its a direct tax on labor. Read Hudson's article. I asked, what labor and capital is being mobilized for retirement because of this? Explain to me step by step why FICA stuffed into general obligations which purchases goods and services just the same isn't a tax?

21st century. Oh right you mean like the new economy in the 90s when everything went up? I knew about the rail road bust in the 19th century and didn't fall for that either. I made my money and was out by 1999 and sitting in GNMAs at 9%. Didn't fall for the housing bubble either because I knew about the 1870s debacle(dumped REITS in 2005). Demonetization of silver and green backs or sub prime debt demonetization = same thing. A special thanks to Henry George and Silvio Gesell on that one. Nothing in finance and basic economics has changed because people haven't changed and not has the physical reality of diminishing marginal returns. This will directly cause everything enumerated by Smith jot for jot.

Didn't fall for "hyperinflation" either thanks to Hudson's FIRE sector model. So I'll stick to what protects my wealth thank you very much.

If the deficits stay high then we will grind out 1-2% if we don't have an economic shock. . If they cut them then recession within months.


Stupid , stupid policy.
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
15,746 posts, read 17,702,328 times
Reputation: 14150
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
Big business is behind the anti-SS bandwagon here telling people to cut it and get rid of it and convincing them that it's outdated and won't be there for them. Problem is they are not saying what will be there for them when they retire.
Win/win for them since that means they no longer have to pay FICA..probably get rid of UE as well.

One step closer in the quest for that global workforce.

I say people need to fight to keep FICA and SS and we need to increase the percentage paid into it and remove the cap.
I'm kind of the opposite.

Being both the employer and the employee, I'm very glad to have loopholes that let me exempt about half of my earnings from FICA taxes. I'm not big business, but social security makes very little sense to me. As a self-employed person, I pay into the unemployment but barring a complete extinction of my industry can never claim it. Even if I could get it, I'm already maxed out on California's unemployment reporting half my income as salary. Likewise, there's little benefit to exposing one's earnings beyond what keeps the audit man happy due to the regressive nature of social security.
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:19 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 3,751,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
Nothing in finance and basic economics has changed because people haven't changed and not has the physical reality of diminishing marginal returns.
I think that you're quite wrong. Everything changed when fossil fuel replaced human muscle power. Everything changed again when international corporations and the FIRE segment replaced farmers and craftsmen as economic drivers (in the terms of Adam Smith: unlike the town shoemaker, a modern corporation has no shame, no ethics, and no conscience). And everything is about to change again with the forthcoming arrival of artificial intelligence.

Although I disagree with you completely concerning economics, be informed that I didn't fall for any of the bubbles that you mentioned, either.
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