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Old 01-03-2013, 10:52 PM
 
4,283 posts, read 3,135,950 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
All I can tell you is the facts. We just got a 2% dead weight head wind. ...
So, you concede that the payroll tax holiday was indeed beneficial to the economy? Great, many do not!

Rather than continue to diminish a tax that is beneficial to all Americans. Let us see SS reform, i.e. a need based qualifier. Do the wealthiest 10% really need that monthly check? Should the cap be at just over 100K or higher? Raise the age so that the program reflects new demographic/actuarial norms.

Even better yet, let us cut some fat from the defense budget. The money flows to farmers and grocers, not defense contractors. Always amazes me that people are happy to fund million dollar cruise missiles while watching the elderly starve. Maybe we could find a balance between the two?

The official motto of the Libertarians and Tea Party members should probably be, "Let them eat cake!"

Last edited by shaker281; 01-03-2013 at 11:12 PM..
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Old 01-03-2013, 11:07 PM
 
4,283 posts, read 3,135,950 times
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For those who do not understand why this stimulus was applied to payroll tax, there is a simple answer. Had they cut the income tax rate, the benefit would not have been evident until tax time (16 months later), unless everyone recalculated their withholding. Past experience with mailing rebate checks has shown that some portion of these "windfall" checks are banked rather than spent, which does not act in the intended fashion. By cutting the payroll tax the effect was immediate and spread throughout the year. Plus it had the effect of directly targeting the lower and middle class as the payroll tax is capped at $106,800 for 2010 7 2011. As Social Security can be reimbursed from the general fund it is therefor irrelevant.

FYI, the cap was raised to $110,100 for 2012, which means more money will flow into FICA to help offset future obligations. I suspect 2013 will be the year for Social Security reform. It will be part of a deal to raise the debt ceiling (like it or not) and lower the deficit.

Last edited by shaker281; 01-03-2013 at 11:16 PM..
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Old 01-03-2013, 11:48 PM
 
19,260 posts, read 16,804,163 times
Reputation: 7481
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaker281 View Post
So, you concede that the payroll tax holiday was indeed beneficial to the economy? Great, many do not!
Concede? I wanted it suspended in 2008 on both the employer side and the employee side.


Quote:
Rather than continue to diminish a tax that is beneficial to all Americans. Let us see SS reform, i.e. a need based qualifier. Do the wealthiest 10% really need that monthly check? Should the cap be at just over 100K or higher? Raise the age so that the program reflects new demographic/actuarial norms.

Even better yet, let us cut some fat from the defense budget. The money flows to farmers and grocers, not defense contractors. Always amazes me that people are happy to fund million dollar cruise missiles while watching the elderly starve. Maybe we could find a balance between the two?

The official motto of the Libertarians and Tea Party members should probably be, "Let them eat cake!"

Why cut until you reach capacity? What's the point? I don't get it? What will adding unemployed people in defensive do ? At least I am defended. What does food stamps, unemployment extensions, welfare and city budgets strained by rioting buy me? How do you save workers? Stuff them in a silo?
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Old 01-03-2013, 11:50 PM
 
19,260 posts, read 16,804,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaker281 View Post
For those who do not understand why this stimulus was applied to payroll tax, there is a simple answer. Had they cut the income tax rate, the benefit would not have been evident until tax time (16 months later), unless everyone recalculated their withholding. Past experience with mailing rebate checks has shown that some portion of these "windfall" checks are banked rather than spent, which does not act in the intended fashion. By cutting the payroll tax the effect was immediate and spread throughout the year. Plus it had the effect of directly targeting the lower and middle class as the payroll tax is capped at $106,800 for 2010 7 2011. As Social Security can be reimbursed from the general fund it is therefor irrelevant.

FYI, the cap was raised to $110,100 for 2012, which means more money will flow into FICA to help offset future obligations. I suspect 2013 will be the year for Social Security reform. It will be part of a deal to raise the debt ceiling (like it or not) and lower the deficit.
Well that was what Keynes was pointing out in his day.
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:07 AM
 
19,260 posts, read 16,804,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish Forbes View Post
Indeed, you're not. Economic analysis based on three-century-old philosophy is a lot of unfocused blather, although true believers may think that it's sound when when it comports with their preconceived political religion. It seems to me that the true motivation may often be someone's burning need to express hatred for our government and just about any and all of its programs.

I think that this is the weirdest thread that I have ever participated in.
Be specific. What is the unfocused blather? Generally people who make sweeping statements like this are covering up their weak resources on the subject. Should I just say Plato was wrong and say that pretty much covers all the dialogues and pretend I have any clue? So you better be specific, or I will just out you as a fraud talking over his head.


Its the 20th century econ, renamed from political economy, that is full of crap and is mostly nothing but a well funded rentier lobbying effort. That is with the exception of Keynes/Kalecki killing Ricardian barter models and post Keynesians like Minsky. About the only thing the classical economists missed was a good money theory.
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:14 AM
 
4,283 posts, read 3,135,950 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
Concede? I wanted it suspended in 2008 on both the employer side and the employee side.





Why cut until you reach capacity? What's the point? I don't get it? What will adding unemployed people in defensive do ? At least I am defended. What does food stamps, unemployment extensions, welfare and city budgets strained by rioting buy me? How do you save workers? Stuff them in a silo?
We would all be defended as well as can be at half the cost. No doubt a large portion of the money going to defense is pork lobbied by and for very powerful entities. Paranoia and false security drives this illusion. I don't see anyone invading or nuking Canada or Australia. The money (from defense) that was redirected to Social Security and Medicare would then flow to other sectors of the economy just as readily, thereby balancing any defense sector job loss.
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:20 AM
 
2,988 posts, read 3,763,727 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
So you better be specific, or I will just out you as a fraud talking over his head.
I love it! It sounds almost Elizabethan ("I shall out thee . . "). Be my guest. Then there would be two of us. Blather on . . . but as Strunk and White famously said, "Be brief!" "Be brief!"
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:38 AM
 
2,988 posts, read 3,763,727 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Unemployment insurance is social security. Many states also have supplemental unemployment such as is the case with California.
I don't understand what you are saying. The unemployment benefits system was required by the original Social Security act of 1935, but beyond that the two systems are completely independent, with unemployment being administered fully by the states and funded solely by employers. States may borrow from the Treasury if their funds run short. North Carolina, for example, owes a lot of money to the feds for past unemployment benefits, but this has nothing to do with Social Security payments.
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:41 AM
 
2,988 posts, read 3,763,727 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaker281 View Post
We would all be defended as well as can be at half the cost. No doubt a large portion of the money going to defense is pork lobbied by and for very powerful entities. Paranoia and false security drives this illusion. I don't see anyone invading or nuking Canada or Australia. The money (from defense) that was redirected to Social Security and Medicare would then flow to other sectors of the economy just as readily, thereby balancing any defense sector job loss.
This has become a huge problem. President Eisenhower called this industry/pressure group "the military-industrial complex," and warned that they would de exactly as you say.
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:23 AM
 
19,260 posts, read 16,804,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish Forbes View Post
I love it! It sounds almost Elizabethan ("I shall out thee . . "). Be my guest. Then there would be two of us. Blather on . . . but as Strunk and White famously said, "Be brief!" "Be brief!"

What you love is deflecting.
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