Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 03-09-2013, 09:45 PM
 
621 posts, read 656,239 times
Reputation: 265

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfpacker View Post
This isn't the 1920's anymore. Oh dear, a $30 hour minimum wage? Holy crap! No, sorry, you don't have a clue, you're just out of touch with reality and economics.
No it isn't. The world's economy is running down because the US can't their goods any more. We have been running a huge debt bubble from 1981 on. http://www.bearishnews.com/wp-conten...l-debt-gdp.jpg The wage hike I'm talking about will restructure our debts so they can be repaid. As I said the world's economy is built on the US buying their goods. We are maxed out on credit and can't buy no more. The Fed is hell bent on keeping asset values up. Well you can't do that without the income to pay for it. The DOW is one thing but houses are another. The Fed is trying to re-blow that bubble. It is really simple you want houses to go up and stay up. Then you need the income to pay for them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-09-2013, 10:05 PM
 
31,672 posts, read 40,952,261 times
Reputation: 14419
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCUBS1 View Post
Yes, the upper class - top 1% - 2% "give a crap" but I'm sure many in the bottom 98% "give a crap" as well. You know, the middle class that contains (often college-educated) teachers, policeman, office workers, service workers, etc... Solutions do not have to include "throwing money at the problem," but a complete overhaul of structure/access/curriculum.... The U.S. educational system is part of the problem of increasing wealth inequality.

Some further reading.....

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Educational inequality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Inequality at birth

Property tax dilemma
The more affluent a neighborhood, the higher the property taxes, and the higher the funding for that school district. Although this situation seems favorable, the problem emerges when the equation is reversed. In neighborhoods inhabited by predominantly working and lower-class families, properties are less expensive, and so property taxes are much lower than those in affluent neighborhoods. Consequently, funding for the school districts to which working and lower class children are assigned is also significantly lower than the funding for the school districts to which children of affluent families are assigned. Thus, students in working and lower class schools do not receive the same quality of education and access to resources as do students from affluent families. The reality of the situation is that distribution of resources for schools is based on the socioeconomic status of the parents of the students. As a result, the U.S. educational system significantly aids in widening the gap between the rich and the poor. This gap has increased, rather than decreased, over the past few decades due in part to a lack of social mobility.[12]^ a b c Leonhardt, D. (2005). Class matters: The college dropout boom. New York Times. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/24/na...INAL.html?_r=1

Social mobility
Social mobility refers to the movement in class status from one generation to another. It is related to the "rags to riches" notion that anyone, with hard work and determination, has the ability to move upward no matter what background they come from. Contrary to that notion, however, sociologists and economists have concluded that, although exceptions are heard of, social mobility has remained stagnant and even decreased over the past thirty years.[14] Some of the decrease in social mobility may be explained by the stratified educational system. Since the educational system forces low-income families to place their children into less-than-ideal school systems, those children are typically not presented with the same opportunities and educational motivation as are students from well-off families, resulting in patterns of repeated intergenerational educational choices for parent and child, also known as decreased or stagnant social mobility.[14]^ a b Leonhardt, D. & Scott, J. (2005). Class matters: Shadowy lines that still divide. New York Times. ^ a b Leonhardt, D. & Scott, J. (2005).http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/15/na...INAL.html?_r=0
Be careful you are treading in dangerous territory and that is the performance of low income students within higher income school districts. Many of our cities have surburban school districts with a mixture of Free and Reduced Meal Students and their performance lags. Remember Shaker Heights which was a major study that found discrepancies within higher income student populations etc etc etc. Depending on the disaggregation lower income students in suburban districts tend to perform higher then their counterparts in urban districts but still lag behind other groups within the district and school.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-09-2013, 10:12 PM
 
1,196 posts, read 1,801,150 times
Reputation: 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCUBS1 View Post
Yes, the upper class - top 1% - 2% "give a crap" but I'm sure many in the bottom 98% "give a crap" as well. You know, the middle class that contains (often college-educated) teachers, policeman, office workers, service workers, etc... Solutions do not have to include "throwing money at the problem," but a complete overhaul of structure/access/curriculum.... The U.S. educational system is part of the problem of increasing wealth inequality.

Some further reading.....

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Educational inequality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Inequality at birth

Property tax dilemma
The more affluent a neighborhood, the higher the property taxes, and the higher the funding for that school district. Although this situation seems favorable, the problem emerges when the equation is reversed. In neighborhoods inhabited by predominantly working and lower-class families, properties are less expensive, and so property taxes are much lower than those in affluent neighborhoods. Consequently, funding for the school districts to which working and lower class children are assigned is also significantly lower than the funding for the school districts to which children of affluent families are assigned. Thus, students in working and lower class schools do not receive the same quality of education and access to resources as do students from affluent families. The reality of the situation is that distribution of resources for schools is based on the socioeconomic status of the parents of the students. As a result, the U.S. educational system significantly aids in widening the gap between the rich and the poor. This gap has increased, rather than decreased, over the past few decades due in part to a lack of social mobility.[12]^ a b c Leonhardt, D. (2005). Class matters: The college dropout boom. New York Times. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/24/na...INAL.html?_r=1

Social mobility
Social mobility refers to the movement in class status from one generation to another. It is related to the "rags to riches" notion that anyone, with hard work and determination, has the ability to move upward no matter what background they come from. Contrary to that notion, however, sociologists and economists have concluded that, although exceptions are heard of, social mobility has remained stagnant and even decreased over the past thirty years.[14] Some of the decrease in social mobility may be explained by the stratified educational system. Since the educational system forces low-income families to place their children into less-than-ideal school systems, those children are typically not presented with the same opportunities and educational motivation as are students from well-off families, resulting in patterns of repeated intergenerational educational choices for parent and child, also known as decreased or stagnant social mobility.[14]^ a b Leonhardt, D. & Scott, J. (2005). Class matters: Shadowy lines that still divide. New York Times. ^ a b Leonhardt, D. & Scott, J. (2005).http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/15/na...INAL.html?_r=0
Go to an inner city school district, and you'll see what I mean.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-09-2013, 10:14 PM
 
31,672 posts, read 40,952,261 times
Reputation: 14419
Quote:
Originally Posted by pie_row View Post
No it isn't. The world's economy is running down because the US can't their goods any more. We have been running a huge debt bubble from 1981 on. http://www.bearishnews.com/wp-conten...l-debt-gdp.jpg The wage hike I'm talking about will restructure our debts so they can be repaid. As I said the world's economy is built on the US buying their goods. We are maxed out on credit and can't buy no more. The Fed is hell bent on keeping asset values up. Well you can't do that without the income to pay for it. The DOW is one thing but houses are another. The Fed is trying to re-blow that bubble. It is really simple you want houses to go up and stay up. Then you need the income to pay for them.
Country Consumption | Economy Watch

Quote:
Factors Affecting Country Consumption

The consumption levels in a country are affected by various factors, such as:

•Prices: High prices result in a decrease in the purchasing power of individuals. This lowers the country’s total consumption.

•Inflation expectations: If the inflation rate of a country is expected to increase in the near future, current consumption levels spike. This is because people purchase (and store) more to avoid paying higher prices. The opposite happens when inflation is projected to decrease.

•Taxes: Higher taxes reduce the disposable income of individuals. This subsequently reduces individual and national consumption.
So you are encouraging massive cost push inflation and the making of goods produced in the United States impossible to be sold outside of our borders? Why would Americans buy products produced here at massive price increases when they could purchase goods imported for a fraction of the price?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-09-2013, 10:17 PM
 
1,196 posts, read 1,801,150 times
Reputation: 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by pie_row View Post
No it isn't. The world's economy is running down because the US can't their goods any more. We have been running a huge debt bubble from 1981 on. http://www.bearishnews.com/wp-conten...l-debt-gdp.jpg The wage hike I'm talking about will restructure our debts so they can be repaid. As I said the world's economy is built on the US buying their goods. We are maxed out on credit and can't buy no more. The Fed is hell bent on keeping asset values up. Well you can't do that without the income to pay for it. The DOW is one thing but houses are another. The Fed is trying to re-blow that bubble. It is really simple you want houses to go up and stay up. Then you need the income to pay for them.
Asia, the Middle East, and the rest of the world (Brazil and India, for example) are now the drivers of the economic future. The U.S. is still important, but we are no longer the lone wolf anymore.

How would a wage hike restructure our debt? It would just mean that we would have run-away inflation...a burger would cost $25, a entry level new car would be around $120,000, ect. You're not doing anything to solve the debt problem.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-09-2013, 11:10 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland
5,749 posts, read 10,350,040 times
Reputation: 7010
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
Be careful you are treading in dangerous territory and that is the performance of low income students within higher income school districts. Many of our cities have surburban school districts with a mixture of Free and Reduced Meal Students and their performance lags.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfpacker View Post
Go to an inner city school district, and you'll see what I mean.
I am specifically referring to the social mobility of children of middle class parents vs. the children of upper class parents. This is the disparity in wealth distribution that this thread addresses. IMO Our educational system is increasingly hindering potential social mobility from middle class to upper class because of its structure and funding source. I am talking about middle class mobility. I am not comparing upper class child performance with the lower class performance. Inner city poverty and mindset is a completely different issue.

I am not a teacher, but my parents are and I've been in Chicago Public Schools. I am all too aware of the negative influence of family/environment in the inner city schools, which I have seen first hand. For that, my solution is inner-city boarding schools like the ones that have been successful in D.C. This was once championed in Chicago by Arne Duncan... I even created a thread about this in the Education forum some time ago....//www.city-data.com/forum/educa...g-schools.html

My kids have attended a prestigious private city school, a "middle-class funded" public school, and finally an "upper class funded" public school. The greatest differences were found in the opportunities available at the "middle class" public school vs. the "upper class" public school.

The difference in opportunity is caused more by property tax base funding models then by intellectual capacity of the students or parental involvement. As I said, there are many middle-class parents who "give a crap," they just can't afford to move.

And the difference of educational opportunity seems to be growing. These are some of the things cut from our last "middle-class public school" (not from our current "upper-class public school") due to the property tax funding model - # of college prep AP courses (HUGE disparity between schools here), high-tech equipment, Art, Music, Computers, Foreign Language, band, extracurriculars, sports, gifted programs, etc..... There were also worse teacher-student ratios and teachers were less qualified (e.g. lower educational attainment).

Last edited by GoCUBS1; 03-09-2013 at 11:34 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-09-2013, 11:26 PM
 
3,770 posts, read 6,722,409 times
Reputation: 3019
Sorry, I didn't read all the thread, because I doubt the right questions will be asked. I've got some answers to the wealth distribution issue in the US. MKay..here it goes.

First off, I used to believe in free trade. The theory is awesome. But it doesn't work in real life. We all do what we are best at and get richer through trade. Problem is that, we are not playing with the same rules. Other countries don't have our minimum wage and don't have our regulations. So they are basically cheating. Businesses move manufacturing overseas, don't follow our rules, yet still sell to us. This is "cheating". Yeah it's legal. To play fair in "globalism" and "free trade" we need to even the playing field. China, India, etc, need to have the same wages as us and needs to have the same regulations or else we tariff them to make up for it. END OF STORY.

BTW, this is why we have a deficit. To keep out economy going, through gov spending, while globalism chokes us.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-10-2013, 03:27 AM
 
621 posts, read 656,239 times
Reputation: 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfpacker View Post
Asia, the Middle East, and the rest of the world (Brazil and India, for example) are now the drivers of the economic future. The U.S. is still important, but we are no longer the lone wolf anymore.
This is true. But markets are mad on the margins and we were the buyers of that margin. Times they are a chnaging.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfpacker View Post
How would a wage hike restructure our debt?
Our debts are valued in dollars not yen or what ever. So if we double our median wage by upping the minimum wage far enough we have cut the economic value of our debts in half. $30 an hr would just about do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfpacker View Post
It would just mean that we would have run-away inflation...a burger would cost $25, a entry level new car would be around $120,000, ect. You're not doing anything to solve the debt problem.
In theory doing a 4X on the minimum wage shouldn't run the price of everything up by 4X. Prices tend to overshoot wage hikes because of the lag between when the work is performed and when the money comes in. We are currently “printing” a large amount of money. Why not “print” enough money too cover that lag and give it to employers and consumers a like. That would tend to eliminate the dead weight loss of the much higher minimum wage as well.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-10-2013, 07:05 AM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 21,930,659 times
Reputation: 15773
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
Only because that's what the American people want.
No, that is what American investors want.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-10-2013, 08:26 AM
 
31,672 posts, read 40,952,261 times
Reputation: 14419
Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixTheCat View Post
Sorry, I didn't read all the thread, because I doubt the right questions will be asked. I've got some answers to the wealth distribution issue in the US. MKay..here it goes.

First off, I used to believe in free trade. The theory is awesome. But it doesn't work in real life. We all do what we are best at and get richer through trade. Problem is that, we are not playing with the same rules. Other countries don't have our minimum wage and don't have our regulations. So they are basically cheating. Businesses move manufacturing overseas, don't follow our rules, yet still sell to us. This is "cheating". Yeah it's legal. To play fair in "globalism" and "free trade" we need to even the playing field. China, India, etc, need to have the same wages as us and needs to have the same regulations or else we tariff them to make up for it. END OF STORY.

BTW, this is why we have a deficit. To keep out economy going, through gov spending, while globalism chokes us.
It is not cheating it is a competitive advantage and the question is are we willing to still be competitive and pay a price in some ways. Perhaps we need to move our wage structure to be more competitive with them? Hmmmm?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top