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Old 03-08-2013, 10:23 AM
 
Location: Chicagoland
5,751 posts, read 10,378,188 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mizzourah2006 View Post
No it does not mean wealth grows on the bottom end. It means the bottom end gets to keep more of their income.

Wealth is a combination of income and a strong understanding of money. If we give the guy that makes 20k/yr 2k more and he decides to spend it on a new plasma television how has his wealth increased?

That's the difference between the wealthy and those with an income. Wealthy individuals understand they need to put off pleasure and invest their income for future purposes. Look at all of the people that have won the lottery and are broke 5 years later.

Wealthy people are wealthy because they understand that money is a vehicle to make more money, not something to be spent.

Look at how many people in this country are saving for retirement before 35-40. It's a rather low percentage. Are you meaning to tell me most of these people can't afford to take 20-30 dollars out of a paycheck to put in a Roth IRA? That 60-80 dollars a month is making or breaking most of the US?

Wealth is a mindset and the ability to suppress immediate needs for future well being. You can't tax the wealthy. You can only tax income, Go ahead tax high earners more and give the lower class more of their federal taxes back. It won't increase the amount of wealth at the bottom end, it will increase the amount of spending at the bottom end. Goods that depreciate in value are not wealth. Tvs, cars, and Iphones are not wealth. They are depreciating assets.

Stocks, bonds, real estate, savings accounts, etc. are wealth.
This post is spot on.. Wealth is appreciating long-term net worth, separate from current high income. Many fail to see the difference between net worth vs. income, long-term gain vs. short-term profit, income tax rates vs income tax shelters, long-term investment vs. short-term gratification, hard-work vs. luck.... I believe these are things that often separate the wealthy from everyone else.

High-income earners are not always wealthy. And the wealthy often shelter much of their income in businesses, real estate, trusts, commercial buildings/equipment, profit sharing, etc.. Most people are not educated on all the shelters out there which is good for the growing wealthy and their tax accountants and their elected officials... but bad for others..

And these shelters do provide major incentives to pour your life savings and hard-work into business and real estate, and if successful, improve certain economies while fostering extreme inequalities. This is often the golden ticket, the most workable path from poor/middle-class to wealthy streets (not everyone can play ML baseball or sing like Beyonce). And the odds are better than buying a lottery ticket.

I doubt much will change at the top though, as the power structure contains money-hungry chameleons who will just shuffle things around, when one tax loophole closes - another will open up, perhaps in another country as the power players are international... Maybe they'll hide income internationally, so it just looks as though the disparity is lessening and the masses will be more accepting. I think the Forbes list is missing a few billionaires. Maybe they're still in Switzerland. The club will always be there though - it is human nature.

Last edited by GoCUBS1; 03-08-2013 at 10:35 AM..
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Phoenix
30,369 posts, read 19,162,886 times
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I was in that bottom 20% for many years having more debt than wealth after graduating university. Now, I'm in the top 20% and have gone through each of the other stages. What our system needs to maintain is mechanisms to allow someone to go from the bottom 20% to the top as we have had so far in our history. My kids are now probably in that bottom 20% but moving forward so I hope our system won't hold them back from moving themselves up to be among that top 20% if they work hard and smart as I did.
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:10 AM
 
927 posts, read 2,466,766 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
And where is it proved that the upper 20% produces jobs these days? That is a fallacy that loves to get repeated.
Are you serious? How many lower class give others jobs?

CEOs, Executives, Directors, Managers, etc... they are the ones who hire lower/middle class people.
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:18 AM
 
Location: Chicagoland
5,751 posts, read 10,378,188 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yoyoma02 View Post
Are you serious? How many lower class give others jobs?

CEOs, Executives, Directors, Managers, etc... they are the ones who hire lower/middle class people.
Maybe she thinks the govt. is providing the jobs? Or struggling small business owners who aren't yet in the top 20%? Or the self-employed?

NewEnglandgirl, Can you clarify? I am curious.
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Old 03-08-2013, 05:31 PM
 
621 posts, read 658,265 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mizzourah2006 View Post
No it does not mean wealth grows on the bottom end. It means the bottom end gets to keep more of their income.
You have a very narrow and technical definition of wealth. The US of A had the biggest richest middle class in the history of the world. That is the meaning of the word wealth that I was using.




If you want to regrow that wealth then it is the shape of the tax code that will do it.


And that wealth was the wealth of this nation.
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Old 03-09-2013, 01:33 AM
 
Location: Ohio
24,621 posts, read 19,165,825 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne View Post
I'm not an economist or expert on the subject. Is this accurate? If so, what are your thoughts?
It's NAZI style propaganda.

That is painfully obvious from the first few seconds where they claim to have asked 5,000 people how they thought wealth is distributed.

That's all well and fine, provided you have first ensured that all 5,000 clearly understand the definition Wealth.

Liberals -- like this Harvard professor -- like to play word games and conflate words with different meanings just like Herr Josef Göbbels did. You can see that clearly on C-D as the words "Wealth," "Income" and "Earnings" (wages/salary) are incorrectly used interchangeably.

It's not much different than the use of "Capitalism" -- which is a Property Theory -- incorrectly and improperly used as a synonym for the Free Market Economic System. Every time you see the word "Capitalism" you have to ask yourself, "Is the person a total douche-bag moron, or are they a propaganda and disinformation artist intent on creating confusion?"

And one might say, that's splitting hairs, or not relevant, but it is relevant, because Capitalism, Socialism and Communism are nothing more than theories positing who should control Capital (private individuals/groups, the government or society as an whole -- which is not the same thing as the government).

Communism has never been implemented on a State scale, but Capitalism and Socialism have.

The Free Market Economic System is compatible with both Capitalism and Socialism (and even Communism even though no Communist State has ever existed and so we've never seen Communism would operate with the Free Market).

We have seen Socialism operated with the Command Economic System, most notably in the Soviet Union, Eastern Europe and elsewhere. Many people believe that was a failure, although their beliefs are flawed and disingenuous.

The point I'm trying to make is that you can have Capitalism and a Soviet-style Command Economic system.....and there are many people in the US who want exactly that, but they lack the guts to come out and say it straight to your face, so they obfuscate.

Wealth," "Income" and "Earnings" (wages/salary) are not synonymous.

Income includes Earnings, but it does not include Wealth. Wealth includes Income and Earnings, but Wealth is not Income or Earnings. How can that be?

Wealth is assets.

It is possible for someone to have $1 Million in Wealth, but $0 in Cash. How? They own land but that land is not rented, or they own bearer bonds or some other tangible/intangible assets.

I'm 13 seconds into the video, and it gets an "F".

"Ideal Wealth Distribution" -- fail. No such thing, and it it would exist, then it constantly shifts and changes, why? Because Wealth is distributed in accordance with the Laws of Economics.

"Skewed unfairly" -- fail. A display of bias and prejudice, not to mention out-right bigotry. The Laws of Economics seek to achieve balance, harmony and equilibrium, and none of those concepts rises to the level of "fairness" or "equality." In other words, balance, harmony and equality are not synonymous with fairness or equality.



In the photo above, note that water -- in accordance with the Laws of Physics -- has sought its own level. However, as you can see, each tube contains a different volume -- amount -- of water.

Is that fair? Is it equitable? Those questions are as irrelevant as asking if Wealth Distribution is fair.

Again, a magnificent display of bigotry using the term "skewed."

So far --- 1:30 into the video -- the propaganda artist has succeeded in proving that 5,000 Americans have no clue what Wealth actually is, and due to that fact, some correctly identify Wealth as assets, while others erroneously believe Wealth to be Income (which may or may not include Earnings) and others falsely believe Wealth is Earnings (even though they don't know what Earnings are).

At 1:56 he lines up 100 people symbols and starts showing the wages/salaries they earn.

At 2:05 he then mentions Net Worth.

See how he attempts to confuse people by conflating Earnings and Wealth?

At 3:26 we have another fail -- equitable wealth distribution. Again, Wealth is distributed in accordance with the Laws of Economics. The distribution of Wealth cannot be equitable any more than Income can be equitable, or any more than Earnings can be equitable.

For instance, you own a 2-family house. You live on the top floor and rent the first floor out for $350/month. That $350/month is not Earnings (salary/wages), rather it is Income (specifically rents). Another owns a 2-family house and rents out one of the units for $650/month.

$350/month versus $650/month. Is that fair? Is it equitable? It doesn't matter, because it is in accordance with the Laws of Economics.

Since the other person is getting $300 more each month than you, they can acquire more assets and build Wealth more quickly, reaching an higher Net Worth before you do.

So....what should be done about that?

Again, at 3:41 in the video "What Americans Think The Distribution Is" he commits a cardinal display of propaganda and disinformation by stating "...while the rich and wealthy are making 100x that of the poorest Americans...."

To you now see how he is trying his damnedest to confuse people by conflating Wealth and Earnings, even though Wealth and Earnings are not the same thing?

That's disgusting.

At 4:35 he shifts back to Wealth again. He makes blatantly false statements referring to "...a stack of cash..." and "....a stack of money..." and "...so much green in his pockets...."

What he is very disingenuously trying to do is convince you that a Net Worth of $400 Million equals $400 Million in cash.....that could not be farther from the Truth.

At 4:48 he says that the Top 1% hold 40% of all the wealth in America which he claimed earlier was $54 TRILLION or so.

You see, Wealth is assets. You may or may not derive Income from your Wealth -- it all depends. I own $1 Million worth of real estate and you own $1 Million worth of real estate. That real estate is an asset, not cash like he said when he intentionally lied to you. You might rent your $1 Million worth of real estate and derive income from it, while my $1 Million in real estate is undeveloped and cannot be rented, so I cannot derive Income from it.

Is that fair or equitable? Perhaps you should give all of the Income you derive from rents to me so that I may development my land at some point in the future -- maybe after 30 years of giving me 100% of your rents I'll have enough to develop it...maybe....maybe not....perhaps I'm merely content to live off of the all of the rents you give to me.

I'm at 5:06 where he once again deceptively and deceitfully switches back to income claiming that the 1% take 24% of the Income --- and he refuses to act honorably and tell you that Income includes Earnings (wages/salaries) but is not limited to Earnings.

At 5:13 he claims that the Top 1% own 50% of the stocks, bonds and mutual funds -- I'll come back to this.

We're at 5:47 where he deceitfully switches back to Earnings -- like I said, he is banking (no pun intended) on the fact that 999 out of 1,000 Americans are unable to differentiate between Wealth, Income and Earnings, and thanks to the propaganda and disinformation spewed by people like him, they are even more confused than ever.

Let's go back to Wealth and Net Worth.

Those are personal choices.

My Net Worth is close to $30,000. I own an home in Romania and some land, some animals, an apartment, and then I own another apartment in Kosice (Slovakia) and have some money in banks in Germany and Romania.

The apartment in Kosice I get token rent. I was out in the country-side and a family in one of the villages invited me to stay in their home. Turns out he was the village police chief. His daughter was attending university, so I benefit from her living in my apartment. His other daughter and son lived there and were graduated. Another person from the village lived there, and now a kid from a neighboring village lives there. My apartment in Arad I rent to a young Magyar couple from Satu Mare who came down to attend university.

I had an apartment in Queens Park (London) but I sold that when I bought my house. I could use that and other money I have to buy more land, or more rental property or buy stocks or bonds, but I choose not to do that.....and I'm not being oppressed.

What this liar failed to tell you in the video, is that any person in the US is free to acquire Wealth....they just have to want to do that.

You can spend $400 on an iPhone, or you can buy $400 worth of stocks or bonds, and build Wealth while simultaneously deriving Income, but you cannot do both at the same time.

Who is oppressing the Poor? The Poor.....yeah, that's right....Poor people are oppressing themselves.

Give me one good reason why a so-called "Poor Person" (snicker) should not move into a rental house or apartment and share it with 3-5 other people.....like I did when I was an undergrad/grad student....save their money to put 35% down on a 2-family home, live on one floor and rent out the other to derive Income and build Wealth?

People openlyblatantly refuse to do those things necessary to build Wealth, and so the solution is to attack, condemn and vilify those people who did choose to build Wealth.....yeah, that makes a lot of friggin' sense.

One last thing....he kept mentioning "...the last 25-50 years..."

Wanna see how bigoted he really is? He doesn't tell you what happened "in the last 25-30 years."

At one time, the Number #1 cultural priority in America was building Wealth.

30 years ago that changed. What are the cultural priorities in America today?

1] Sega
2] X-Box
3] Game-Boy
4] iPhone
5] iPod
6] GPS
7] NetFlix
8] Starsux
9] Laptop
10] Desktop
11] Notebook
12] Plasma TV
13] McMansion
14] McDonald's
15] Chipotle
16] McDonald's
17] Applebe's
18] McDonald's
19] Starsux
20] Cell-Phone Batteries
21] More cars than you need to have
22] A new car every time you get upside down on the car note
23] Coogi, Tommy-Gear, Nike, Prada, DKNY, BeBe
24] McDonald's
25] DVDs
26]......

Do any of those things build Wealth? No. Then why are you throwing your money away and what gives you the right to ***** like a witch?

30 years ago, did people buy cars with no money down and finance them for 72 months? No. You put 10%-20% down and financed it for 1 year. Maybe 18-24 months if you were a loyal customer or had a good relationship with your bank or credit union.

Do perpetual car payments make sound financial sense? No. Does it build wealth? No. Then why are you throwing away $189/month to $329/month each every month for 40 years?

30 years ago, did people buy a $1,700 Plasma TV using their credit card and pay $1,700 for the TV while throwing away $1,789 in Interest? Elaborate in detail how giving $1,789 to the Top 1% is unfair or inequitable, when you voluntarily chose to do that? Explain how paying $1,789 in Interest builds Wealth?

30 years ago, did people buy an home with no money down? No. You lived in a cramped apartment and saved up 25%-35% for a down-payment, instead of voluntarily choosing to buy a $250,000 McMansion with 0% down at 6.5 % for 30 years and pay $318,000 in interest.

Grow a brain and put 35% to 45% down on the $250,000 McMansion and pay only $79,956 in interest.

It's a personal choice to voluntarily pay $318,000 in interest instead of paying $79,956 in interest.

The fool who pays $318,000 voluntarily chose to destroy $238,044 in Wealth.


Take the $238,905 in interest not paid and put that money in something like a pass-book savings account and after 30 years, you have

...$762,505

That, is how wealth is created.

Proving liars are pathetic....

Mircea
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Old 03-09-2013, 02:25 AM
 
33,016 posts, read 27,458,643 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yoyoma02 View Post
This video makes me strive to be in the top 20%.

I was poor 10 years ago. Now I'm middle class. Give me another 15 years and I'll be upper class.

Also, this video doesn't talk about how much more the upper 20% pay in taxes. Also, the upper 20% give a bunch of lower and middle class people jobs. In fact, I work for a large employer... I want them to make as much money as possible for job secruity and potential for promotions, pay raises, moving up the corporate ladder, etc...

The rich get richer/the poor get poorer not because of government, but because it's a way of thinking.

??? Burger flippers get poorer because it's a way of thinking???
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Old 03-09-2013, 02:51 AM
 
33,016 posts, read 27,458,643 times
Reputation: 9074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
What this liar failed to tell you in the video, is that any person in the US is free to acquire Wealth....they just have to want to do that.

You can spend $400 on an iPhone, or you can buy $400 worth of stocks or bonds, and build Wealth while simultaneously deriving Income, but you cannot do both at the same time.

Who is oppressing the Poor? The Poor.....yeah, that's right....Poor people are oppressing themselves.

Give me one good reason why a so-called "Poor Person" (snicker) should not move into a rental house or apartment and share it with 3-5 other people.....like I did when I was an undergrad/grad student....save their money to put 35% down on a 2-family home, live on one floor and rent out the other to derive Income and build Wealth?

People openlyblatantly refuse to do those things necessary to build Wealth, and so the solution is to attack, condemn and vilify those people who did choose to build Wealth.....yeah, that makes a lot of friggin' sense.

I can rent a cottage or guest house for $500, but government does not allow me to buy the same cottage or guest house independently of additional real estate. Put another way, government denies me the personal choice of buying that asset. Since government prohibits property owners from selling me a home I can afford to buy, I must continue to rent; government thus redistributes wealth from me to my landlord.

Who is oppressing the poor? Government.

As for sharing a rental house or apartment with 3-5 other people, I do that now, but that also has risks which detract from building wealth. I've had assets stolen by others living in the house. Also, I'm not in charge of deciding who moves in, that person is flaky and often allows vacancies to persist, which drives up the costs I must pay. And 3-5 unrelated sharing a house or apartment often violates local zoning codes, so it's not an option available everywhere.
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Old 03-09-2013, 03:56 AM
 
106,670 posts, read 108,833,673 times
Reputation: 80159
Quote:
Originally Posted by freemkt View Post
I can rent a cottage or guest house for $500, but government does not allow me to buy the same cottage or guest house independently of additional real estate. Put another way, government denies me the personal choice of buying that asset. Since government prohibits property owners from selling me a home I can afford to buy, I must continue to rent; government thus redistributes wealth from me to my landlord.

Who is oppressing the poor? Government.

As for sharing a rental house or apartment with 3-5 other people, I do that now, but that also has risks which detract from building wealth. I've had assets stolen by others living in the house. Also, I'm not in charge of deciding who moves in, that person is flaky and often allows vacancies to persist, which drives up the costs I must pay. And 3-5 unrelated sharing a house or apartment often violates local zoning codes, so it's not an option available everywhere.
guess you are either doomed to live the life of a pauper or find a way out. see how simple life can be?
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Old 03-09-2013, 08:05 AM
 
5,460 posts, read 7,761,278 times
Reputation: 4631
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post

...

Wealth," "Income" and "Earnings" (wages/salary) are not synonymous.

Income includes Earnings, but it does not include Wealth. Wealth includes Income and Earnings, but Wealth is not Income or Earnings. How can that be?

Wealth is assets.

It is possible for someone to have $1 Million in Wealth, but $0 in Cash. How? They own land but that land is not rented, or they own bearer bonds or some other tangible/intangible assets.

...

It's a personal choice to voluntarily pay $318,000 in interest instead of paying $79,956 in interest.

The fool who pays $318,000 voluntarily chose to destroy $238,044 in Wealth.

Take the $238,905 in interest not paid and put that money in something like a pass-book savings account and after 30 years, you have

...$762,505

That, is how wealth is created.

Proving liars are pathetic....

Mircea
Sorry but to be 100% honest, you sound like an apologist and a shill for the 1%?? Everyone knows that it is a heckuvalot easier to acquire assets, wealth, whatever you want to call it when you already have the financial assets of say Mitt Romney at your disposal. Your analysis above also conveniently omits the people (again, the 1%, correct?) who are born into wealth by default and therefore are never really challenged to even have to do the heavy lifting to secure wealth that you had mentioned in the first place.

Why do you get to decide what people are and are not allowed to buy? 30 years ago, people were still buying houses and TVs. In fact, housing prices happened to be *a lot* better for people, 30 years ago. Housing prices today have gone up so astronomically and exponentially in certain regions of the U.S. that people who could have bought a house 30 years ago are priced out of the market.

Some of the things you are apparently blaming people for are simply not their fault. Is it a person's fault that s/he is never going to be able to afford on their salary to buy an example modest, 1500 sq. ft. house in D.C. that today in 2013 is worth $700,000 on the market (which might have also been worth as little as say $175,000 or less, as late as say 1992)? Is it a person's fault that while CEO's have received a 300% increase in their standard of living since the 1970's, the average worker's salary has never been fairly indexed to inflation, using the exact same free-market rules that you have been advocating? Is it a person's fault that average credit card interest rates are about 15-20%, while the federal funds rate is 0% - 0.25% (meaning that in theory, credit card rates *should*, again based on free-market rules, be anywhere from around 4.25% - 6.25%)? Is it a person's fault that again while credit card interest rates are around 15-20%, a typical interest-bearing bank checking account is very likely to be *less than 1%*, in today's market?
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