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Old 03-27-2013, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,478 posts, read 54,547,848 times
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So why do we not have all the good jobs that require a college education? Where did they all go? Were they ever there?
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Old 03-27-2013, 03:55 PM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
31,549 posts, read 70,750,789 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
So why do we not have all the good jobs that require a college education?
Where did they all go? Were they ever there?
We already have an attorney for every 265 people in the US.
Do we really need more? How about insurance agents? Do we need more of them?

One more time... the un and under employment problem is less about not having enough jobs
for everyone that might want one (or may even be qualified to do). The problem is in having far
too many people available for the jobs that actually need doing.

What will we the surplus 2/3's of the attorneys shift to doing something else?
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Old 03-28-2013, 05:54 PM
 
47,531 posts, read 63,993,595 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
We already have an attorney for every 265 people in the US.
Do we really need more? How about insurance agents? Do we need more of them?

One more time... the un and under employment problem is less about not having enough jobs
for everyone that might want one (or may even be qualified to do). The problem is in having far
too many people available for the jobs that actually need doing.

What will we the surplus 2/3's of the attorneys shift to doing something else?
The problem is -- the surplus lawyers shift to becoming politicians.

Also many jobs today didn't need college degrees in the past. For many jobs before, all that was needed was a high school diploma but college is huge business now, there's a lot of money to be raked in but also a high school diploma no longer guarantees that someone is literate today.
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Old 03-28-2013, 08:14 PM
 
5,507 posts, read 9,733,625 times
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Originally Posted by MaseMan View Post
I think there are many young people who would love to pay off their student loans, but simply can't. It has nothing to do with the over used "entitlement" buzz word.
Well most students that went to a quality school have less than 20k in debt. That isn't a lot to pay off over a long period of time.
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Old 03-28-2013, 08:18 PM
 
5,507 posts, read 9,733,625 times
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Originally Posted by MaseMan View Post
I've read quite a few posters on this forum state that a student loan bubble might be going "pop" in the near future. What would this actually look like? It seems to me that with student loans being propped up by the government, the status of the roughly $1 Trillion in student loans in our country is fairly secure.
It will not pop like others have said. What will happen over time is for-profits will go out of business. You already see them closing locations and reporting losses. There is really not much value to their degree.
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Old 03-29-2013, 04:59 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
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MrRational - I agree with you that there are already too many applicants for jobs that actually need doing. You use layers as an example. So, given the surplus of lawyers, why are the prices so high. I think the price would drop as more and more people entered the profession.

On the other hand the skilled industrial trades, such as machine builder and/or tool and die maker, the salaries have not increased even though most of these men are about to or are retired. As far as I know a skilled machinist is still only making around $25 per hour if he is with a government contractor. Most are paid less.

Another problem is even though there is work to be done there is no funding for the work. This country could employ an army of Engineers designing the repair and/or replacement of most of our roads, bridges, water supply and sewers but we prefer to have a surplus of engineers than pay for the work that needs to be done.

Any society that pays financiers more than plumbers because financing is more important will soon be leaking both money and water. Our society is literally doing this now.
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Old 04-03-2013, 05:37 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
18,436 posts, read 16,794,871 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
MrRational - I agree with you that there are already too many applicants for jobs that actually need doing. You use layers as an example. So, given the surplus of lawyers, why are the prices so high. I think the price would drop as more and more people entered the profession.

On the other hand the skilled industrial trades, such as machine builder and/or tool and die maker, the salaries have not increased even though most of these men are about to or are retired. As far as I know a skilled machinist is still only making around $25 per hour if he is with a government contractor. Most are paid less.

Another problem is even though there is work to be done there is no funding for the work. This country could employ an army of Engineers designing the repair and/or replacement of most of our roads, bridges, water supply and sewers but we prefer to have a surplus of engineers than pay for the work that needs to be done.

Any society that pays financiers more than plumbers because financing is more important will soon be leaking both money and water. Our society is literally doing this now.
There is a definite skill/wage mismatch in some trades. If people saw how much skill and experience is required to manufacture quality tools, stamps, dies, etc that fabricate our vehicles and industrial products, one couldn't help but ask... $25/hr for all that? What makes it even more insulting is we are required to have our own tools, which are quite expensive. I've got about 10K invested in my box, and that's considered light where I work. That's why many of these skilled trades are reporting moderate to sever shortages of skilled workers. Those of us who have been in the trades for awhile saw this happening years age. Now it's really starting to become an issue. You can't have growth in the manufacturing sector without skilled workers to do the work. People whine that we are losing good paying manufacturing jobs. What are we as a society doing to keep them here? Seems to me most of the technical programs that could get young people involved in the trades have all been closed down.

What makes it especially challenging today to "grow the skills" in many trades today... Typical apprentices start at half the journeyman's, or experienced worker's wage. What's half of $25? $12.50. I'm sorry, but for the kind of mind required to digest, understand, and retain everything needed to become a good tool and die maker, $12.50/hr ain't gonna cut it. The young one's with the brains figured they would be better off going to college, getting a degree, and walking out with a 50K job upon graduation. Regardless if that's the reality or not in this economy, that seems to be the mindset.

What I believe has happened... For years, companies have been outsourcing anything possible. At least as it relates to the high skilled manufacturing trades, corporations find it cheaper to have a slave wage laborer in another country do the bulk of the work. The corporation knows the product will not satisfy the dimensional requirements, so they allow extra lead time for the product to be reworked by a few skilled workers here in America. At the end of the day, the bulk of the work is done for $1/hr. A few workers in America put in a fraction of the time for $25-$30/hr. There will be challenges to this strategy in the future though. You really can't train a skilled worker in this occupation by fixing screw ups. They have to get time in manufacturing these items from start to finish to really get the hands on experience required to reach journeyman level proficiency. Unfortunately, I fear the bulk of this work will simply leave the country in the coming years and migrate to more expensive countries like Canada, or various high wage European countries that respect these honest occupations. So in America, you will either be a suit monkey, or you will be some form of low skill, low pay laborer. Simply put, our culture respects certain occupations, while marginalizing the value and output of others. Management saw their wages/salaries rise under such an environment, which has directly contributed to these shortages being reported. Is this sustainable? Well, the unemployment situation doesn't seem to be getting any better.

Very sad path that deviates considerably from our humble origins.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:45 PM
 
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It doesn't pay enough to do a trade. I could be making more money working in a office.
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Old 04-04-2013, 05:23 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
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Thank you, andywire, for your well written and accurate essay. I started tending, building and repairing machinery before I went into the Navy where I went to school and eventually became a Machine Repairman (machinist). After I got back from 'Nam in ’67, I got a job as machinist working titanium. I was well paid for that job but it did not take long to realize a college degree would pay a lot better as well as being more interesting. I used the GI bill to supplement the pay I received working in various shops to pay for college.

Since then I have been working a mixture of field and office and although I am not getting great pay it is better than I would receive if I were still a working metal for someone else. Admittedly I prefer designing and building specialized machinery but I also do not want to run my own business. I am near retiring and then we will see what happens.

If I were a recent high school graduate in these times I am not sure what to do. I would definitely avoid any military service. I suppose I would place my soul in a lockbox and learn the religion of business in college and play the game for real. After a couple of decades I would see how much money I had stolen and if my soul had not withered away. If it had I would keep making money until a stress related heart attack took me out. If my soul remained intact I would just quit and live off the investments and write books warning kids about the personal perils of a financial career.
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Old 04-04-2013, 01:08 PM
 
48,508 posts, read 89,095,226 times
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Originally Posted by GregW View Post
So why do we not have all the good jobs that require a college education? Where did they all go? Were they ever there?
We are are still in recessio as far as jobs numbers.That is the point of QE being lined to it by FED. Still unemployed college degreed is about hal;f that by per cenatge as non-deagreed and income is beyond that.More and ore it degree chocie that makes the difference. Its one of the largest factors in income levels we see i modern times and has grown.
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