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Old 04-26-2013, 02:16 PM
 
5,507 posts, read 9,722,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
College tuition is returning to the norm. We've seen college tuition be so cheap in the past several decades (since WWII) that it was available to practically anyone. Now that it's returning to the norm, it will price out those who don't receive merit-aid or those who aren't wealthy.

Essentially, we'll go back to the smart and wealthy attending college. Just like it's been for centuries. There's nothing wrong with that. The positive side effect will be that people won't need a college degree to work at the dry cleaners anymore.
I'd phrase that as smart or wealthy.
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Old 04-26-2013, 03:24 PM
 
28,900 posts, read 49,370,200 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
College tuition is returning to the norm. We've seen college tuition be so cheap in the past several decades (since WWII) that it was available to practically anyone. Now that it's returning to the norm, it will price out those who don't receive merit-aid or those who aren't wealthy.

Essentially, we'll go back to the smart and wealthy attending college. Just like it's been for centuries. There's nothing wrong with that. The positive side effect will be that people won't need a college degree to work at the dry cleaners anymore.
As long as you're willing to see hundreds, maybe thousands of institutions of higher learning shutter.

Further, I think your thesis really doesn't hold water, given how critical technical skills have become in a host of ways. Essentially, the consequence of what you're talking about is an economy devolving back to an agrarian society.
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Old 04-26-2013, 04:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
As long as you're willing to see hundreds, maybe thousands of institutions of higher learning shutter.

Further, I think your thesis really doesn't hold water, given how critical technical skills have become in a host of ways. Essentially, the consequence of what you're talking about is an economy devolving back to an agrarian society.
Actually our infrastructure was in better shape when fewer people went to college. Houses were better built, a high school diploma actually meant one could read and write and perform math equations.

We have evolved back to an agrarian society where farmers need massive numbers of cheap uneducated workers and Americans believe they are too educated to work the jobs available.

We don't need engineers when we no longer have a manufacturing industry. We have the irony of far too many unskilled jobs going unfilled or can only be filled by cheap labor immigrants while millions of Americans will never work again.
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Old 04-26-2013, 04:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatornation View Post
I'd phrase that as smart or wealthy.
True. I should have said smart and/or wealthy.
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Old 04-26-2013, 04:31 PM
 
24,497 posts, read 37,670,392 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
As long as you're willing to see hundreds, maybe thousands of institutions of higher learning shutter.
I most certainly am. Most institutions of higher education in the United States are garbage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
Further, I think your thesis really doesn't hold water, given how critical technical skills have become in a host of ways.
Academia should not be teaching technical skills. There's trade schools and other methods of learning that can adequately prepare individuals for employment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post

Essentially, the consequence of what you're talking about is an economy devolving back to an agrarian society.
That is not what I am talking about.
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Old 04-26-2013, 04:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
As long as you're willing to see hundreds, maybe thousands of institutions of higher learning shutter.

Further, I think your thesis really doesn't hold water, given how critical technical skills have become in a host of ways. Essentially, the consequence of what you're talking about is an economy devolving back to an agrarian society.
For starters all for-profits could go out of business and it would be a good thing. The community colleges in Florida are now technically four year schools but offer very few programs. They still mainly function as you would imagine a CC doing so with various certificates and AA programs that translate to jobs. I think that is what you might see low level universities morph into over the years.
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Old 04-27-2013, 03:00 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
18,357 posts, read 16,723,513 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
As long as you're willing to see hundreds, maybe thousands of institutions of higher learning shutter.
Good riddance to the excess number of for profit institutions which charge a premium for an average or worse educational experience. They accept damn near anyone, just so long as they have access to funds, warranted or otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
Further, I think your thesis really doesn't hold water, given how critical technical skills have become in a host of ways. Essentially, the consequence of what you're talking about is an economy devolving back to an agrarian society.
Why, because we have computers these days? Newsflash, most young folks are computer literate. You don't need to go to college to create an excel spreadsheet. You don't even need to go to college to become a computer programmer, as many exist without post secondary education. Same is true with some engineering disciplines. Anything that isn't government regulated is fair game to a HS grad with the right skillset. The difference is employers don't have to train anymore. Young folks are expected to pay for their own training by going to college to learn the basics. It's not that the jobs are any more difficult. In fact, technology makes many of these jobs far easier. Drafting on a computer is a breeze compared to pencil and paper. Who needs a protractor anymore? With a computer, you can create a 3D imagine instead of trying to visualize details and their relationship in your mind or on paper.

The work isn't changing so much as the rules of the game. But the system before was actually quite efficient. When an employer needed a certain type of worker, and they couldn't find one, they trained one. If they were smart, they would spend a great deal of time assessing potential candidates for their ability to grasp concepts and ideas pertaining to the industry. This was a self regulating system that produced just the right number of workers to match demand. Everyone had a fair shot, regardless if they spent 4 years learning about stuff like poetry and the evolution of modern snack foods. Today, anyone can blindly sign up for any college program, so long as they make the grade and can get a loan. Lower the standards of admission enough to suit the government's taste, and just about anyone can sign up. Since this system is not self regulating, expect gluts to be common, as well as oodles of future delinquent student loan bills.

But if you insist that we need educational institutions on every street corner, technical programs offered at vocational or technical schools are a grossly under promoted and underutilized resource. For one reason or another, we have been programmed to believe that if you lack a 4 year degree, you will suffer a fate of long periods of unemployment, miniscule earning potential, or both. Why does one need to learn about Odysseus and his great voyage to pursue any career, other than one that involves teaching others about Homer's Odyssey? Why must an engineer learn about this, but not a plumber or an electrician?

But the end result, since all of this is terribly inefficient on a macro scale is simple. You will end up with a lot of cultured, well trained check out clerks at the local grocery story. At least they have the privilege of calling themselves "underemployed", if that offers any dignity while working for $8/hr and paying $200/month for the past educational experience. The company's hiring practices aren't going to change all that drastically just because the supply of educated adults has changed. They will still seek the smartest, most promising future talent. The subpar degree holder will be left to fight for the scraps among their HS counterparts. Supply does not dictate demand in the labor market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Actually our infrastructure was in better shape when fewer people went to college. Houses were better built, a high school diploma actually meant one could read and write and perform math equations.
A HS diploma also guaranteed basic competency in reading, writing and mathematics. Today, it means you were able to show up on a semi regular basis and memorize the answers the teacher gave you to the test. No critical thinking skills, no problem solving ability, nothing required to function in any career other than perhaps politician. You know the answer to the question because the teacher taught the test. You have no clue how you arrived at that answer. But it's good enough to get that HS diploma. Hence, a HS diploma today is worth the loose change I have in the cup holder in my car

Start improving our infrastructure, but most importantly, our K-12 system. Many HS level jobs go unfilled because HS grads are not showing up with a fully functional brain. Those job now require a 4 year degree in many cases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
We don't need engineers when we no longer have a manufacturing industry. We have the irony of far too many unskilled jobs going unfilled or can only be filled by cheap labor immigrants while millions of Americans will never work again.
In all fairness, we still are one of the top manufacturing nations on the globe. We just don't focus on making holiday ornaments and cheap, breakable crap anymore. We are a 1st world nation with a high COL. You just can't compete in crap work with a workforce demanding +$15/hr. We have, and must continue to evolve by competing on quality and dependability of manufactured goods, as that is always worth paying more for. We still need engineers. We also need skilled workers. We need top notch talent and minds in both.

What has happened... The young folks were told to go to college. Engineering = good because it requires a college degree, and my parents said it's a good profession. Skilled tradesman = hard work, long hours, low entry level wages = bad career choice. So now, thanks to the inefficiency of our current career distribution model, we have something of a glut of degreed engineers, while we don't have enough 20 something tradesman in training. We also have a lot of 50-60 something YO skilled tradesman who would like to retire as opposed to plopping dead on the factory floor. Perhaps some of those underemployed aspiring engineers should trade in their text books for some tools.

What happens when all the brains collect in the engineering department? You're products are crap because they were manufactured poorly. You need smart people on both sides, but we don't have an efficient career distribution model in place. Both the A and B students decided to pursue engineering. The C students were a poor choice for the skilled side, but that's all that's left to work with. Hence, America looses competitive advantage in high margin work to countries like Germany, Switzerland, Canada, Norway...
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Old 04-27-2013, 01:37 PM
 
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And a huge problem is the assumption that everyone getting a 4 year degree is somehow worth 6 figure salary the minute they step out into the working world.

They have zero job skills, an degree that means little.

I actually witnessed with my eyes a woman with a 4 yeaegrr degree calculate an average between 1.4 and 1.6. She got a piece of paper and added up the two numbers and then below the sum, she performed another equation, dividing it by 2.

Fortunately she did get the right answer but then got hung up on whether it should be rounded up to 2 or down to 1. She's now teaching in a high school. Pity the children.

It took this woman 8 years to get a 4 year degree but repeating classes 2 or 3 times finally paid off for her. Eventually you get a lazy professor who hands out passing grades.
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Old 04-27-2013, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Texas
843 posts, read 1,470,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
And a huge problem is the assumption that everyone getting a 4 year degree is somehow worth 6 figure salary the minute they step out into the working world.

They have zero job skills, an degree that means little.

I actually witnessed with my eyes a woman with a 4 yeaegrr degree calculate an average between 1.4 and 1.6. She got a piece of paper and added up the two numbers and then below the sum, she performed another equation, dividing it by 2.

Fortunately she did get the right answer but then got hung up on whether it should be rounded up to 2 or down to 1. She's now teaching in a high school. Pity the children.

It took this woman 8 years to get a 4 year degree but repeating classes 2 or 3 times finally paid off for her. Eventually you get a lazy professor who hands out passing grades.
I know a bunch of engineering students who are good at math having a hard time landing on a decent job.

There's no evidence to show that what people learned in college will finally pay off in the long run. The only reason for everyone to go to college is, you are supposed to have a degree because everybody else has.

The demand for college graduates, including engineering graduates is not that huge, but colleges are willing to admit as many students as possible.

Medical school is another story, and we all know why.
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Old 04-27-2013, 05:41 PM
 
5,507 posts, read 9,722,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
And a huge problem is the assumption that everyone getting a 4 year degree is somehow worth 6 figure salary the minute they step out into the working world.

They have zero job skills, an degree that means little.

I actually witnessed with my eyes a woman with a 4 yeaegrr degree calculate an average between 1.4 and 1.6. She got a piece of paper and added up the two numbers and then below the sum, she performed another equation, dividing it by 2.

Fortunately she did get the right answer but then got hung up on whether it should be rounded up to 2 or down to 1. She's now teaching in a high school. Pity the children.

It took this woman 8 years to get a 4 year degree but repeating classes 2 or 3 times finally paid off for her. Eventually you get a lazy professor who hands out passing grades.
No one at a qualify school is under the assumption they are going to make six figures with a bachelors.
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