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Old 03-25-2013, 02:05 PM
 
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Mondragon Corporation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is one of Spains most successful corporation in their history. It's worker owned and is one of the best examples of alternatives to capitalism.

It has it's problems, it's not a perfect model, but from what I've read it sure beats the current mode of production we have now. I would love for this type of business to grow.

***and please no libertarian purists who insist that this model is "capitalist". Just because it's not state owned, it doesn't make it capitalist. The silly public/private dichotomy you guys have is beyond absurd.


[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]
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Old 03-25-2013, 02:46 PM
 
Location: Wouldn't you like to know?
9,115 posts, read 16,259,629 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarcelonaFan View Post
Mondragon Corporation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is one of Spains most successful corporation in their history. It's worker owned and is one of the best examples of alternatives to capitalism.

It has it's problems, it's not a perfect model, but from what I've read it sure beats the current mode of production we have now. I would love for this type of business to grow.

***and please no libertarian purists who insist that this model is "capitalist". Just because it's not state owned, it doesn't make it capitalist. The silly public/private dichotomy you guys have is beyond absurd.


[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]
What specific problems do you have w today's production (except for the fact we import way more than we export in the US)
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Old 03-25-2013, 02:57 PM
 
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You think a trade deficit is our only problem? How about the fact that wages have remained stagnant since the late 70s while production is up and profits are high? Who is getting the bulk of that gain? Certainly not workers who have had to finance their way into the middle class. I think that if we really believe wholeheartedly in democracy, we should stretch that concept out into the economic sphere as well. And I do not mean some stock option thing either.

There should really be a national debate about this too considering the evidence is out there that this model works more efficiently and promotes better sustainability than what we have now.

I do not mean to pigeonhole you but just from your question I gather you think that the hierarchy in the workplace doesn’t bother you and you think that there is some overriding balance of payments embedded in its structure, and that this doesn’t seem to translate outside of the work place at all. Since it’s “voluntary” you assume that there is antagonisms within the workplace do not translate into social antagonisms between people outside the work place. As if there is no contradiction between the model we uphold now and society?

I apologize if that is not what you were intending but libertarians tend to really spam most boards.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:00 PM
 
Location: WA
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Originally Posted by CouponJack View Post
What specific problems do you have w today's production (except for the fact we import way more than we export in the US)
Agreed.

'Capitalism is defined as a social and economic system where capital assets are mainly owned and controlled by private persons, where labor is purchased for money wages, capital gains accrue to private owners, and the price mechanism is utilized to allocate capital goods between uses.'

Where does the motivation to innovate, capitalize, and establish new enterprises come from when you eliminate profit motive? Capitalism has worked to improve the lives of most of the world while alternatives seem to do nothing more than either fail or lean on markets created by capitalism.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cdelena View Post
Agreed.

'Capitalism is defined as a social and economic system where capital assets are mainly owned and controlled by private persons, where labor is purchased for money wages, capital gains accrue to private owners, and the price mechanism is utilized to allocate capital goods between uses.'

Where does the motivation to innovate, capitalize, and establish new enterprises come from when you eliminate profit motive? Capitalism has worked to improve the lives of most of the world while alternatives seem to do nothing more than either fail or lean on markets created by capitalism.
Platitudes. Textbook stuff that does not translate into real life. Capitalism in real life creates contradictions within society that could be easily solved with alternatives. Most people just think that there is some sad juxtaposition between great wealth and great poverty as if it was some sad natural condition. But these conditions are mostly created by the contradictions in capitalism.

If anything has helped living standards rise it was the fight against those contradictions and the rise of the labor movement. Workers have not the capitalist or the politician to thank for their living standards but themselves.

If capitalism was such a natural mutually beneficial thing then there would not be a need to call in the State to batter workers back into submission when they call for better conditions and wages.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:14 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
34,170 posts, read 13,247,972 times
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Originally Posted by cdelena View Post
Where does the motivation to innovate, capitalize, and establish new enterprises come from when you eliminate profit motive?
From Ben Franklin's autobiography...

“… as we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours; and this we should do freely and generously.”

http://www.earlyamerica.com/lives/franklin/
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:27 PM
 
19,346 posts, read 17,016,094 times
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define capital.


This?




Or that?

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Old 03-25-2013, 03:28 PM
 
Location: NC
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About 5% of US companies are owned by a large group of employees or by the entire staff in an employee stock ownership plan (ESOP), United Airlines comes to mind. So we know it can work, though results have been mixed in the US for a variety of reasons.

I certainly wouldn't presume, so just what exactly are you proposing here?
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:29 PM
 
19,346 posts, read 17,016,094 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarcelonaFan View Post
Mondragon Corporation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is one of Spains most successful corporation in their history. It's worker owned and is one of the best examples of alternatives to capitalism.

It has it's problems, it's not a perfect model, but from what I've read it sure beats the current mode of production we have now. I would love for this type of business to grow.

***and please no libertarian purists who insist that this model is "capitalist". Just because it's not state owned, it doesn't make it capitalist. The silly public/private dichotomy you guys have is beyond absurd.


[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]

Oh yeah , I agree with this.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:36 PM
 
19,346 posts, read 17,016,094 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdelena View Post
Agreed.

'Capitalism is defined as a social and economic system where capital assets are mainly owned and controlled by private persons, where labor is purchased for money wages, capital gains accrue to private owners, and the price mechanism is utilized to allocate capital goods between uses.'

Where does the motivation to innovate, capitalize, and establish new enterprises come from when you eliminate profit motive? Capitalism has worked to improve the lives of most of the world while alternatives seem to do nothing more than either fail or lean on markets created by capitalism.
What makes you think profit motive leads to progress?

The typical capitalist today under my model is (consider the left to be the favored class):

rent-capital | labor

Socialists :

labor | capital-rent


Me and the old progressives like JS Mill and Henry George:

labor-capital | rent

I am quite literally the third way not associated with modern capitalism or socialism.
Leo Tolstoy: “People do not argue with the teachings of George, they simply do not know it. And it is impossible to do otherwise with his teaching, for he who becomes acquainted with it cannot but agree.”
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