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I agree to a certain extent. Also that actual leg up comes in different levels though. I mean a person who is born to very rich/connected parents is basically set for life , no matter how much they apply themselves or how much they **** up. On the other end of spectrum u can be born into poverty , with only one parent , ie not a very good stable life and it can **** u up long term , just in the way you think/act, I think a lot of people just essentially say to that situation “it’s their fault fir their decisions “ essentially just ridding themselves of problem/turning the other cheek.
Look I agree that a lot of it has to do with their decisions in life , I’m not disagreeing with that but part of it is also their upbringing and how that shapes a person and how it’s not as easy as “Picking themselves up”. I bet you more than half the people who say that If put into that sort Of situation would be **** ups too.
Personally I believe being in a stable family , even a poor family is really important
I said nothing about "fault" or "picking themselves up" - only that those that apply themselves tend to do better, given the same situation.
As far as stable family - many studies have shown that children raised in a 2 parent household tend to do much better than those from a single parent household, regardless of race or income bracket. Some studies have suggested that income inequality increases may be mainly due to family structure breakdowns.
I said nothing about "fault" or "picking themselves up" - only that those that apply themselves tend to do better, given the same situation.
As far as stable family - many studies have shown that children raised in a 2 parent household tend to do much better than those from a single parent household, regardless of race or income bracket. Some studies have suggested that income inequality increases may be mainly due to family structure breakdowns.
Sorry didn’t mean to attack you directly but just talking In generalities, but yeah to your point I think family structure has a lot to do with it.
There are so many factors that can raise someone up or keep them down. It is so much more than hard work and a great family.
What about intelligence? Sorry, not all of us are smart enough for those great jobs. You could offer to pay for me to go to medical school, but it's not happening - I am not that smart.
Mental illness, even if someone is highly intelligent can be a HUGE hindrance and keep one poor their entire life. Depression, social anxiety - it is hard to climb a corporate ladder when you need to throw up when your alarm clock goes off.
Age? Physical fitness? These things matter. It is easier to lift yourself out of poverty at 35 than at 55.
It takes more than a "bootstraps" pep talk. Life is more complicated than that.
Yep, I can't stand that most of the dr.'s I know are sons and daughters of dr's. Meanwhile I'm just a retired civil servant shlub. And there are those under me who would love to be where I am.
You see there are always people in worse off starting points than others. As well as those in better positions. It's up to you to do something about it.
Are you the hero in your movie? Or are you letting the powers that be call the shots? What does the hero in your movie do to win?
Having a doc. as a parent does not get a kid into/through medical school or residency.
Times have changed making it harder, far more difficult, for a person to start up a business where they perhaps can make decent money without a degree (or with one in too many cases) in engineering or other "demand" field. Part of the problem is government regulation and legal entanglements. Some of it is due to rigorous licensing requirements or self protection rules by people already in a trade. In my area, for many years we had a couple of brothers whose business involved pumping septic tanks, replacing drain fields etc. Not a crowded field as you might imagine but they were incredibly reliable, honest (not ripping off widows and elderly). However, they were both almost illiterate with their wives handling the business end. Along came the government and came up with a test you had to pass in order to be in the business. Basically the exam involved "digging in the dirt". Neither could pass because they could not read well enough to prepare never mind to read the exam itself. The government was picking winners and losers and it is more acute today. They finally had to rearrange their business structure to take on a "partner" who could pass the exam and they could operate under that license. Yes, yes, there are perils with digging: natural gas lines, other utilities, etc. But these men could have easily been put out of business. I tend to believe that pulling oneself up by their own shoe strings is largely a thing of the past.
I make more money than people with degrees. I never finished college. But then having a degree doesn’t mean you are gonna make money. It just means you have a degree.
Your last sentence is typical bs defeatist talk. Plenty of people start businesses every day. Some fail some succeed. But I bet the ones who succeed live eat breathe and sleep that business. Most people, are not willing to sacrifice what it takes to run a business successfully.
When I had my shop I literally worked 7 days a week 14/16 hours a day. For the first few years. Would I do it again depends on the state. In California...no. Other states yes.
They said the same thing during Reagan years, the best of America is behind us, he refused to believe it and ran for President. Don’t believe me, watch PBS.
I agree to a certain extent. Also that actual leg up comes in different levels though. I mean a person who is born to very rich/connected parents is basically set for life , no matter how much they apply themselves or how much they **** up. On the other end of spectrum u can be born into poverty , with only one parent , ie not a very good stable life and it can **** u up long term , just in the way you think/act, I think a lot of people just essentially say to that situation “it’s their fault fir their decisions “ essentially just ridding themselves of problem/turning the other cheek.
Look I agree that a lot of it has to do with their decisions in life , I’m not disagreeing with that but part of it is also their upbringing and how that shapes a person and how it’s not as easy as “Picking themselves up”. I bet you more than half the people who say that If put into that sort Of situation would be **** ups too.
Personally I believe being in a stable family , even a poor family is really important
Malcolm gladwells book on outliers addresses this. The largest negative factor that works against your income as an adult is being born to a single parent household. The single largest positive indicator is your parents income and education level. You’ll note, both of these are 100% outside of a persons control. Small, early advantages continue to roll on. He points out how a huge percentage of ice hockey players who eventually make the nhl in Canada are all born in certain months. Why? They hit the artificial age cut off. They got put down a level. They’re better and stronger than peers. They get closer coaching then. They are more compelled to lead. The same thing happens in education. More mature children early get put in fast tracked classes, or may see more teacher attention. This small step early, spirals into bigger and bigger advantages over peers.
Malcolm gladwell also has a book called David and Goliath. In it he analyzes all sorts of situations where the underdog beats an entity thought to be vastly superior. In the final analysis, it comes down to lacking certain advantages can become an advantage. It calls out character traits that others with advantages can’t summon. You can take certain risks. You think differently. You have endurance or work ethic that can’t be duplicated by Others. Disadvantage is not nearly as bad as it may seem on the surface. It can be the single greatest advantage one can have. And for those born with advantage, it can rot their spirit. It can be a lazy crutch, that competitors can use against you. It’s why it’s seen almost universally across cultures that family wealth is gone within 3 generations. Adversity can crush someone who is soft and always had things go their way. Adversity can be shrugged off by someone whose been through the mud. They get up again and again because they’re used to it. It’s the concept of the “near miss” that the british observed in the Second World War. Rather than collapsing from German terror bombing, it emboldened the people. Rather than breaking their spirit, it brought out a stubbornness that is considered legend today. Having problems can make one unbreakable. Surviving a bad situation or multiple bad situations gives you the confidence that you’ll do it again and survive this one. One becomes almost immune to bad news.
With both of these things said, this is why I posted the video I posted earlier. All you can do is start where you are. And build from that. A step today allows you to take a bigger step or a different step tomorrow that you couldn’t take today. That’s all you can do. It’s the fundamental human hero myth story. YOU have to confront your problems.
We all have the same 24 hours in the day. I don’t care if you’re in college. Out of college. Had foster parents. Came from wealth. Had nothing. It doesn’t matter. You defeat your old self in the final analysis and work from that base.
Last edited by Thatsright19; 09-01-2020 at 10:53 AM..
All these scenarios are sort of simplistic, and anecdotal. There could be a million reasons someone doesn't succeed, none of which has anything to do with one's drive or parents. There is such a thing as bad luck, though most of you successful folks don't believe it and think we're whining. I'll give myself as an example.
2 successful parents who came up with the idea of my partner and I starting our own printing business. My dad volunteered a $25,000 loan to get us started. We started with a small press in our garage. I was 21, my partner was 33 and had years of experience working as a supervisor for a printing co. Eventually we moved to an industrial strip mall. We were successful in a small way. Got another, larger press (same cost as our home). We worked 7 days a week for 8 years.
When modems first came out, a salesperson approached us to lease one so we could communicate with our clients better. Our main client was Long Beach University and we were printing their nursing program workbooks. I was apprehensive and asked if we could return it if it didn't meet our needs. "Yes," said the salesperson and the paperwork indicated that was so. The modem was part of the new typesetting equipment that was state of the art in the late 70s. That equipment was part of the lease.
So, it did not meet our needs. We asked to return it. A couple months later, we were sued for the entire duration of the lease. $70,000. We could not find a lawyer we could afford, plus the suit was in Boston, we were in CA. So we ended up declaring bankruptcy. Not really a bad thing back then.
The industry changed and our niche was redundant. We were able to sell the company for just the loan that some SBA guy talked us into---which we didn't need.
So, we decided to build houses with the cash from our CA house. We had done our own addition and enjoyed it. We built a 3,000 sq. ft. gorgeous house outside of Denver. It was a hill lot with a fantastic view, and the split-level suited the lot. Come time to sell, no one wanted a split-level, they called it a walk-out basement though it was totally finished like the upstairs with 3 bedrooms, 2 baths and family room. No one wanted a split-level. Who knew. This was 1990. After waiting a year to sell, we had to accept a measly $145,000 when all the smaller, uglier houses around us went for over $250,000 (today it sold for $650,000, sigh). Cost us $90,000 to build. So we barely made anything for a year of back-breaking work---we did all the work ourselves except concrete, roofing and HVAC.
During the year we waited to sell, our elderly neighbor approached us and proposed a joint venture. He'd finance and we'd do the labor on the empty lot between us he owned. 2/3 the way through that project, his wife decided she wanted it. NO, we said, that was not the contract. It was to be a spec house, not a custom house. Just pay us for what we'd already done. Instead, they sued us. Our lawyer went to the Gulf War and dropped our case, unbeknownst to us. No associate took over. So we lost the case and got zero for our year of work, plus a huge lien. We moved away, no money to keep fighting.
We built another house near Yosemite but partway through, my partner got dangerous so I had to leave. My dad took over while my partner continued to build. He overran the budget, probably because of me leaving, and my dad had no financial sense to control his spending (my dad had the title due to our previous lien). So he sold that place for less than it cost.
From 2006 to 2014 I worked in a resort. In my 50s by now, so not a lot of options in that tourist town. I was good at my job and raked in $4,000 a month in tips. My boss continually told me I was the best performer. Out of the blue in 2014, he canned me with no warning, never a write-up, never a criticism in the whole 9 years. I was absent twice in 9 years (appendectomy) and worked extra every time it was needed. I was the reliable one. My work ethic is very strong. He replaced me with Jamaicans to whom he would not have to pay unemployment in winter.
In a meeting with him he said "You make too much money". WTF?
I had an iron-clad case, so I fought it but turns out, unemployment lawyers are all working FOR employers, not employees. No one would take my case. I finally found a low-level guy and settled for peanuts since 95% of cases in court go to employers anyway.
So the point of this uncharacteristically long post (sorry, I never do that) is you have here several cases of flat-out bad luck. Without a crystal ball, I don't see how any of this could have been prevented. Certainly hard work was not lacking, nor was skill or ambition. By my calculations, the printing co. should have sold for $250,000 of "Blue Sky", but the industry had changed. Places were doing in-house printing now.
So my half: $125,000.
The Denver house should have sold for over $250,000 so my half, $125,000. Second Denver house: about the same so say $125,000 my half.
The Yosemite house should have sold for $300,000 so my half, $150,000.
My unemployment case should have netted me at least $50,000---just in wages lost for one year. The "average" discrimination case settles for $40,000 according to my research. Before you say "at will", I had all the paperwork to prove both disability and age discrimination. No one cared.
So....there's $575,000 by my math---all gone to bad luck. I don't know what else to call it. Do you?
No lack of effort, hard grunt labor, ambition, skill...just an amazing, head-scratching amount of life going awry. Yes, it's anecdotal, so but so are all the preceding stories.
$575,000--plus all the interim interest (probably be 2 million over all these years)----maybe I wouldn't be in Ecuador!
No, we're not exactly "poor", but I'm tired of all these boot-strap stories and the myth of meritocracy.
All these scenarios are sort of simplistic, and anecdotal. There could be a million reasons someone doesn't succeed, none of which has anything to do with one's drive or parents. There is such a thing as bad luck, though most of you successful folks don't believe it and think we're whining. I'll give myself as an example.
2 successful parents who came up with the idea of my partner and I starting our own printing business. My dad volunteered a $25,000 loan to get us started. We started with a small press in our garage. I was 21, my partner was 33 and had years of experience working as a supervisor for a printing co. Eventually we moved to an industrial strip mall. We were successful in a small way. Got another, larger press (same cost as our home). We worked 7 days a week for 8 years.
When modems first came out, a salesperson approached us to lease one so we could communicate with our clients better. Our main client was Long Beach University and we were printing their nursing program workbooks. I was apprehensive and asked if we could return it if it didn't meet our needs. "Yes," said the salesperson and the paperwork indicated that was so. The modem was part of the new typesetting equipment that was state of the art in the late 70s. That equipment was part of the lease.
So, it did not meet our needs. We asked to return it. A couple months later, we were sued for the entire duration of the lease. $70,000. We could not find a lawyer we could afford, plus the suit was in Boston, we were in CA. So we ended up declaring bankruptcy. Not really a bad thing back then.
The industry changed and our niche was redundant. We were able to sell the company for just the loan that some SBA guy talked us into---which we didn't need.
So, we decided to build houses with the cash from our CA house. We had done our own addition and enjoyed it. We built a 3,000 sq. ft. gorgeous house outside of Denver. It was a hill lot with a fantastic view, and the split-level suited the lot. Come time to sell, no one wanted a split-level, they called it a walk-out basement though it was totally finished like the upstairs with 3 bedrooms, 2 baths and family room. No one wanted a split-level. Who knew. This was 1990. After waiting a year to sell, we had to accept a measly $145,000 when all the smaller, uglier houses around us went for over $250,000 (today it sold for $650,000, sigh). Cost us $90,000 to build. So we barely made anything for a year of back-breaking work---we did all the work ourselves except concrete, roofing and HVAC.
During the year we waited to sell, our elderly neighbor approached us and proposed a joint venture. He'd finance and we'd do the labor on the empty lot between us he owned. 2/3 the way through that project, his wife decided she wanted it. NO, we said, that was not the contract. It was to be a spec house, not a custom house. Just pay us for what we'd already done. Instead, they sued us. Our lawyer went to the Gulf War and dropped our case, unbeknownst to us. No associate took over. So we lost the case and got zero for our year of work, plus a huge lien. We moved away, no money to keep fighting.
We built another house near Yosemite but partway through, my partner got dangerous so I had to leave. My dad took over while my partner continued to build. He overran the budget, probably because of me leaving, and my dad had no financial sense to control his spending (my dad had the title due to our previous lien). So he sold that place for less than it cost.
From 2006 to 2014 I worked in a resort. In my 50s by now, so not a lot of options in that tourist town. I was good at my job and raked in $4,000 a month in tips. My boss continually told me I was the best performer. Out of the blue in 2014, he canned me with no warning, never a write-up, never a criticism in the whole 9 years. I was absent twice in 9 years (appendectomy) and worked extra every time it was needed. I was the reliable one. My work ethic is very strong. He replaced me with Jamaicans to whom he would not have to pay unemployment in winter.
In a meeting with him he said "You make too much money". WTF?
I had an iron-clad case, so I fought it but turns out, unemployment lawyers are all working FOR employers, not employees. No one would take my case. I finally found a low-level guy and settled for peanuts since 95% of cases in court go to employers anyway.
So the point of this uncharacteristically long post (sorry, I never do that) is you have here several cases of flat-out bad luck. Without a crystal ball, I don't see how any of this could have been prevented. Certainly hard work was not lacking, nor was skill or ambition. By my calculations, the printing co. should have sold for $250,000 of "Blue Sky", but the industry had changed. Places were doing in-house printing now.
So my half: $125,000.
The Denver house should have sold for over $250,000 so my half, $125,000. Second Denver house: about the same so say $125,000 my half.
The Yosemite house should have sold for $300,000 so my half, $150,000.
My unemployment case should have netted me at least $50,000---just in wages lost for one year. The "average" discrimination case settles for $40,000 according to my research. Before you say "at will", I had all the paperwork to prove both disability and age discrimination. No one cared.
So....there's $575,000 by my math---all gone to bad luck. I don't know what else to call it. Do you?
No lack of effort, hard grunt labor, ambition, skill...just an amazing, head-scratching amount of life going awry. Yes, it's anecdotal, so but so are all the preceding stories.
$575,000--plus all the interim interest (probably be 2 million over all these years)----maybe I wouldn't be in Ecuador!
No, we're not exactly "poor", but I'm tired of all these boot-strap stories and the myth of meritocracy.
It sounds like you made a number of mistakes.
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