Minimum Wage Controversy (insurance, free market, company, taxes)

[shaker281]

Originally Posted by Electrician4you

So you want a raise for a non skilled mindless labor job? Why? What exactly do you bring to the table that is WORTH a company paying you $15 a hour? What are you doing to warrant doubling your hourly pay? This is nothing more than the entitlement crowd trying to get oh yeah another entitlement. $15 a hour to flip burgers. You have to be yanking me. That job should top out at $8 a hour and im being kind. You're making a burger. And hell you're not even cooking it you're putting it together like a LEGO. Its mindless tab A slot B work. And yes I had a minimum wage job. When I was in high school.
How many people do you think are gonna pay $16-$20 for a happy meal to cover your wages? I bet there will be a lot if back yard BBQing

Wanna make more money? Put some effort in searching for a SKILLED labor job or go to school get some training. Ok nt everyone can be a brain surgeon, rocket scientist or lawyer, but put some effort in bettering yourself

I would never denigrate anyone for working for a living. Being on rung 2 of the ladder shouldn't justify anyone to step on the fingers of those on rung 1.
Someone with a masters or doctorate in EE might consider an "electrician's" work to be "mindless tab A slot B work".

[markg91359]

What if all wages were determined by what the company wanted to pay....you know, supply and demand. I think if there were no minimum wage, certain companies could actually lower their prices and pass on the savings to the consumer..which would stimulate the economy. Why would this be a bad idea?

So, essentially your argument is let's abolish the minimum wage completely and let employers pay "whatever the market will bear"?

I'm sure a lot of low skilled businesses would like that. The only thing they would have to do next is make sure we keep importing a lot of immigrant labor from the poorest countries in the world.

What you don't seem to understand is that the minimum wage is part of an overall policy that is probably as much a social policy as it is an economic one. We, the people, through Congress made certain decisions years ago and we adhere to those decisions. We require employers to pay a minimum wage. We have laws establishing a forty hour work week, and we require 150% compensation for overtime. We require breaks during a work day for lunch and other purposes. We have other laws mandating safe practices in a work place. I could go on, but the point is really this: These laws when taken as a package define the minimum contours or prerequisites that an employer must meet to offer someone a "legal job". If the employer can't meet these minimums, our preference as a society is that he not be allowed to employ anyone. We want the people he would employ to find other jobs, get more job training, and, if necessary, take government assistance while they search for a job that meets the legal minimums.

Why have we made this decision? One major reason is to protect everyone else. If employers can get away with lowering standards than it threatens the vast majority of us who are employed in jobs that meet these minimums. Eventually, our own employer would seek to cut costs and break these laws to remain competitive. Also, as I stated above we believe that workers who lack the skills to at least earn minimum wage, should be acquiring the skills to do so instead of working such a marginal job.

Now, as a matter of fact, I don't support huge increases in the minimum wage. Our economy is struggling right now and significant increases might well lead to more unemployment. It would certainly create an incentive for employers to look at replacing workers through technology. What I do favor is a modest increase in the minimum wage. Perhaps, it should be raised $1 per hour now. Maybe another $1 by 2016.

There is no chance we are going to abolish the minimum wage, so you can give up "hoping".

[trundle]

I can tell you the effect of the minimum wage on ME. I just do everything myself, instead of hiring somebody, unless I can get some guys from the mission to do it for $6 an hour cash. If I had to worry about anybody causing me trouble with the labor board, I wouldn't hire those guys, either.

I can also tell you that in 1969, the minimum wage was $1.60 and you cleared 1.25 an hour. And a brand new Volkswagon beetle cost $2000, and a gallon of gas at the Shell was 40c, cause I was pumping it. So an hour's labor, clear, bought 3 gallons of gas and a regular work year would buy a new VW. Today, it would take a minimum wage of $14 an hour to do the same thing.

We had to let the companies move jobs overseas, of course. But we did did NOT have to agree to not tax the hell out of their products when they sold them back to us. If we had done that, those jobs will still be here, and they'd be paying $30 an hour. it is true that the labor unions raped all the other workers. It's also true that 20 million people are here (or got here) illegally. That's about a trillion $ a year wasted. So is the worthless miitary and spy apparatus.

I could set up 1-2 bizes that hire a dozen people. But I won't, cause it's just a huge exposure to lawsuits and other legal problems, in return for a very minimal benefit for me. I'm sure that this same thing is true of millions of people. The incentives are too low, and disencetives are too high. Before I'd run that risk, each worker would have to be putting about $40 an hour actually in my pocket.

[SOON2BNSURPRISE]

If you don't like working for minumum wage then go to school and prepare for a better life. No one is making anyone work for minumum wage. People that stay in a low paying job do that to themselves. So many people want to say, "hey I can't make it in life at this pay. Bail me out. Give me more. We want a living wage." Many of us figured that out on our own and did something about it. We went to school, we learned trades, we started business's of our own. We did anything that we could to build a better life. Now a lot of people that didn't figure that out want to bypass the hard work of building a better income and have the Government make companies pay them more. This is un American. We the people can do better. No one holds you back here in the USA. No one keeps you from making it. The only person that can do that is yourself. This is the greatest nation in the world. We the people can accomplish great things. We are resilient and can get thru the hard times. Don't ever let someone tell you that you can't make it and don't let anyone tell you that you need the Government to get ahead. You can do it on your own.

[embe]

After reading the replies on this thread, concerning pay.....does anyone here understand the company or business does not pay anything of value to the regular working employee(or laborer)?

People speak as if the company is losing value if they pay more an hour. What value is the Company losing? Do you know? Can you name it? Have you asked?
Please don't say "money" because then I'll ask "what money"? Gold and silver is money, that has not altered. Gold and silver is money because it has its own self contained value.
So what value is the Company losing since it doesn't have gold or silver,....Accounting numbers? Is the Company losing Accounting numbers from the liability side of a Ledger book? What about the asset side? or the debt side?

If you have decided the Company is losing value from paying the employee with a certain amount of accounting numbers...then i will ask you, where did the value come from for those numbers that resulted in value loss, Ink from the pen or the printer??
Can you figure it out yet?
Figure out where the value is coming from for the accounting numbers the employee (or laborer) is paid with?
The value comes from---> THE EMPLOYEE!
Why do you think someone has to go to work and labor for a week before being paid?
Employees must work to CREATE A PAYCHECK! Yes....CREATE a paycheck. If the employee must labor to create a paycheck, indicates the paycheck DOES NOT PRE- EXIST! The value is created, it is NOT given by the company or Business.

Think carefully about that the next time your Employer makes you feel like the Company is losing value.

Oh...wait a minute....since the Company hires employees to work and create value for the company and the company keeps a portion of what the employees create.....THE EMPLOYEES ARE PAYING THE COMPANY! OUCH! Isn't it amazing how they have reversed what is really happening?

The Company is receiving value from the employees, therefore, the company receives income NOT THE EMPLOYEES! But yet, the Company convinces the employees to pay the income tax.......isn't it amazing.

I would like to hear from the business owners paying their employees, concerning my reply. if I am incorrect, I apologize and ask you to correct my understanding.

[goldengrain]

Originally Posted by SOON2BNSURPRISE

If you don't like working for minumum wage then go to school and prepare for a better life. No one is making anyone work for minumum wage. People that stay in a low paying job do that to themselves. So many people want to say, "hey I can't make it in life at this pay. Bail me out. Give me more. We want a living wage." Many of us figured that out on our own and did something about it. We went to school, we learned trades, we started business's of our own. We did anything that we could to build a better life. Now a lot of people that didn't figure that out want to bypass the hard work of building a better income and have the Government make companies pay them more. This is un American. We the people can do better. No one holds you back here in the USA. No one keeps you from making it. The only person that can do that is yourself. This is the greatest nation in the world. We the people can accomplish great things. We are resilient and can get thru the hard times. Don't ever let someone tell you that you can't make it and don't let anyone tell you that you need the Government to get ahead. You can do it on your own.

I agree that there are some people who may work hard, but not smart. They knock themselves out for a crappy job and at the end of the day do no planning to get into a better position. THey are just too tired or lazy to do anything but watch tv or hang with friends.

But there really are some people doing those jobs with some sort of handicap and are mentally challenged or have very low IQ's. What are they supposed to do? Do they deserve to live? Should they at least have the assurance of some sort of roof over their heads and food on the table?

Some of those workers on the picket line certainly have no problem finding food. Looking at a lot of people who are that obese really makes you feel that they are lazy and ignorant. I think we all feel as though it must be much harder for a really fat person to get a decent job because of all the connotations that we associate with it. It makes you think that at some level they have just given up on themselves, so if they don't care why should we?

[pie_row]

Originally Posted by SOON2BNSURPRISE

If you don't like working for minumum wage then go to school and prepare for a better life.

That is based on the assumption of 5% or less unemployment. The reality is that unemployment is far higher than that and has been for a long time. After the dot com bubble popped we had a job-less recovery. The correct thing to say is that if you don't want to work for minimum wage then fix the economy. There isn't high enough demand for labor to get full employment in the teen age labor pool.

Originally Posted by SOON2BNSURPRISE

No one is making anyone work for minumum wage.

This depends on how you look at things. Labor is voluntary as you can chose not to work. So you are not being made to work at all so you aren't being made to work minimum wage. How ever the net effect of public policy is that minimum wage is out of the reach of a lot of the low end, under employable, portion of the workforce.

Originally Posted by SOON2BNSURPRISE

People that stay in a low paying job do that to themselves.

Or not. There are those out there that have challenges that other people don't. They simply can't reach beyond the bottom rung of employment. How do you treat those less fortunate than your selves. Do you tell them that they are doing it to themselves. Well shame on you.

Originally Posted by SOON2BNSURPRISE

So many people want to say, "hey I can't make it in life at this pay. Bail me out. Give me more. We want a living wage." Many of us figured that out on our own and did something about it.

What about those that aren't able to? They can work but not well enough to make it. If they can work then they don't get SSI.

Originally Posted by SOON2BNSURPRISE

We went to school, we learned trades, we started business's of our own. We did anything that we could to build a better life.

What about those that aren't up to that task?

Originally Posted by SOON2BNSURPRISE

Now a lot of people that didn't figure that out want to bypass the hard work of building a better income and have the Government make companies pay them more. This is un American.

But it is in the best interest of those that have money to make sure that those that don't have enough to not starve.

Originally Posted by SOON2BNSURPRISE

We the people can do better. No one holds you back here in the USA. No one keeps you from making it. The only person that can do that is yourself. This is the greatest nation in the world.

Times are changing. It looks very much like if I want to set up a foundry I need to move to Mexico.

Originally Posted by SOON2BNSURPRISE

We the people can accomplish great things. We are resilient and can get thru the hard times. Don't ever let someone tell you that you can't make it and don't let anyone tell you that you need the Government to get ahead. You can do it on your own.

Or we get together and do it together. The net effect of government policies has been the transfer of wealth from the middle to the top. This transfer can be undone with the minimum wage law.

[embe]

Originally Posted by shaker281

It seems you have a rather narrow definition of labor. What, in your mind, do business owners do all day? Sit in a barcalounger counting their profits?

I do not know what they do all day. Are you a business owner? if you are then share....
Also share the main function of a business Ledger book for accounting. The asset,debt, and liability side of the Ledger would be interesting to know.

[Henry10]

Here is socialism for you:

Originally Posted by markg91359

We (i.e. Big Govt) require employers to pay a minimum wage. We (i.e. Big Govt) have laws establishing a forty hour work week, and we require 150% compensation for overtime. We require breaks during a work day for lunch and other purposes. We have other laws mandating safe practices in a work place. I could go on, but the point is really this: These laws when taken as a package define the minimum contours or prerequisites that an employer must meet to offer someone a "legal job". If the employer can't meet these minimums, our preference as a society is that he not be allowed to employ anyone. We want the people he would employ to find other jobs, get more job training, and, if necessary, take government assistance while they search for a job that meets the legal minimums.

Why have we made this decision? One major reason is to protect everyone else. If employers can get away with lowering standards than it threatens the vast majority of us who are employed in jobs that meet these minimums. Eventually, our own employer would seek to cut costs and break these laws to remain competitive. Also, as I stated above we believe that workers who lack the skills to at least earn minimum wage, should be acquiring the skills to do so instead of working such a marginal job.

Here is capitalism for you:

Originally Posted by trundle

I can tell you the effect of the minimum wage on ME. I just do everything myself, instead of hiring somebody, unless I can get some guys from the mission to do it for $6 an hour cash. If I had to worry about anybody causing me trouble with the labor board, I wouldn't hire those guys, either.
......
I could set up 1-2 bizes that hire a dozen people. But I won't, cause it's just a huge exposure to lawsuits and other legal problems, in return for a very minimal benefit for me. I'm sure that this same thing is true of millions of people. The incentives are too low, and disencetives are too high. Before I'd run that risk, each worker would have to be putting about $40 an hour actually in my pocket.

Originally Posted by embe

If you have decided the Company is losing value from paying the employee with a certain amount of accounting numbers...then i will ask you, where did the value come from for those numbers that resulted in value loss, Ink from the pen or the printer??
Can you figure it out yet?
Figure out where the value is coming from for the accounting numbers the employee (or laborer) is paid with?

Proudhon and later Karl Marx figured it out 200 years ago. Marx wrote a whole book on it, you may have heard -- Das Kapital. In fact, he developed the theory that the Surplus Value is the reason capital exists and its ultimate goal, thus capitalism. We call it "profit", or "return on investment" etc.. What's your point?

[andywire]

My issue is... If the company is not willing to pay more for their minimum wage laborers, what happens? Well, in the case of these MANY adult burger flippers with children, "we the people" will make up the difference. I don't eat fast food. Why should I subsidize your happy meal?

I'm not arguing about the welfare sissy nanny state. I'm not arguing about the current minimum wage or the wages "the market will bare". I'm just stating reality as it is today. This whole shift to a "service sector economy" is not a sustainable shift as it is moving today. The government can't print money forever. When the current system falters, and the checks start bouncing, a certain class will begin to make noise.