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Old 12-07-2013, 10:36 PM
 
Location: Atlantis
3,017 posts, read 3,484,259 times
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01 - 80% of Americans are either too lazy or too dumb to actually save for 'retirement', so the government has to mandate that a tax exists (paid for 1/2 by the taxpayer and 1/2 by the employer) so that they do not starve and become homeless when they are older.

02 - Most employers (if not all) try to pay employees the minimum that a person would need to 'earn' just to be able to survive and pay for their daily and monthly living expenses in the present time. Any employers that would pay their employees enough to put away and save for retirement would be pushed out of the 'free market' by other companies that did not do that and paid their employees less.

03 - Even if the average American actually had enough money to save for retirement - if given the opportunity to access that money over the course of their lives would invariably use it to pay for their children's college costs, pay off a mortgage or spend it buying consumer goods to keep up with their peers and neighbors that were buying newer and better things and the money would just get injected into the economy with no long term benefit for the spender.

04 - Fundamentally - by ensuring that older people have just enough to survive after they turn 65 in the form of Social Security, and taking that money over the course of 30 - 40 years of their working lives without allowing them access to it until they are older or in the case that they die prior to an age where they could collect Social Security - it prevents the money from actually existing in an account that the retired person could leave in the form of an inheritance to a younger heir. It keeps the money (assuming Social Security funds actually exist) in the hands of the government and out of circulation.

05 - It maintains a socio-economic balance that prevents riots in the street and absolute and total turmoil based on the fact that most people even if given the right amount of income in excess of what they need to survive: would not ever even consider saving for retirement but would still hold their hands out when and if the time comes.
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Old 12-07-2013, 10:46 PM
 
24,497 posts, read 37,432,994 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydive Outlaw View Post
01 - 80% of Americans are either too lazy or too dumb to actually save for 'retirement', so the government has to mandate that a tax exists (paid for 1/2 by the taxpayer and 1/2 by the employer) so that they do not starve and become homeless when they are older.
Well, you've hit the nail on the head with the fact that many Americans would not be able to save for 'retirement'. However, lazy and dumb are two of a large number of reasons why this is the case and most likely do not cover the majority of cases. Also, can you provide the source in which you pulled the 80% statistic from? It will liven up this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydive Outlaw View Post

02 - Most employers (if not all) try to pay employees the minimum that a person would need to 'earn' just to be able to survive and pay for their daily and monthly living expenses in the present time. Any employers that would pay their employees enough to put away and save for retirement would be pushed out of the 'free market' by other companies that did not do that and paid their employees less.
So, capitalism is the reason?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydive Outlaw View Post

03 - Even if the average American actually had enough money to save for retirement - if given the opportunity to access that money over the course of their lives would invariably use it to pay for their children's college costs, pay off a mortgage or spend it buying consumer goods to keep up with their peers and neighbors that were buying newer and better things and the money would just get injected into the economy with no long term benefit for the spender.
This is already included in reason 01.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydive Outlaw View Post

04 - Fundamentally - by ensuring that older people have just enough to survive after they turn 65 in the form of Social Security, and taking that money over the course of 30 - 40 years of their working lives without allowing them access to it until they are older or in the case that they die prior to an age where they could collect Social Security - it prevents the money from actually existing in an account that the retired person could leave in the form of an inheritance to a younger heir. It keeps the money (assuming Social Security funds actually exist) in the hands of the government and out of circulation.

05 - It maintains a socio-economic balance that prevents riots in the street and absolute and total turmoil based on the fact that most people even if given the right amount of income in excess of what they need to survive: would not ever even consider saving for retirement but would still hold their hands out when and if the time comes.
05 is also included in 01.

Last edited by NJBest; 12-07-2013 at 11:00 PM..
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Old 12-07-2013, 10:53 PM
 
Location: Atlantis
3,017 posts, read 3,484,259 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
Also, can you provide the source in which you pulled the 80% statistic from? It will liven up this thread.
It was already encompassed.
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Old 12-08-2013, 02:01 AM
 
13,718 posts, read 16,737,929 times
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Actually, the reason Social Security exists is that at the time it was implemented, it was a way to get older workers out of the workforce and make room for younger workers. It provided income to the older workers so they wouldn't need to keep working for income.

These days, anyone receiving Social Security has paid into for many years and is getting back THEIR money that they put into the fund.

I think people can do a better job of handling their own money to save for retirement than having the government take it from them and then mismanage it by robbing the Social Security fund for other things. It's not the government's money to spend, it is OUR money that we have paid in.

Are you saying railroad workers are too lazy or dumb to handle their money, then, since the railroad does the same thing? The difference being that the railroad does it right and doesn't spend the money that is set aside for workers' retirement. And railroad retirement actually is enough to live on.
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Old 12-08-2013, 03:15 AM
 
2,409 posts, read 2,847,614 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luzianne View Post


I think people can do a better job of handling their own money to save for retirement money

What do you base this on? As a whole, the population is terrible at saving for retirement. Look at the state of 401(k) plans for those near retirement.
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Old 12-08-2013, 12:10 PM
 
11,831 posts, read 5,008,776 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydive Outlaw View Post
Why Social Security as a tax exists:
Since the Nixon Shock in 1971, any tax that is associated with, conjoined with, funded by or dependent on The General Fund is now simply an illusion as a necessary tax. And this includes SS. What this means is that the funding of SS is no longer physically limited in our monetarily sovereign Gov't system. And the taxation for it is balance sheet shenanigans and/or for controlling the people and business. So SS can no more run out of money than any one of hundreds of Federally funded programs. i.e. it's now only the politics and not the money in any 'lock box'.

Fraud #4:

http://moslereconomics.com/mandatory...nocent-frauds/
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Old 12-08-2013, 12:11 PM
 
11,831 posts, read 5,008,776 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmFest View Post
What do you base this on? As a whole, the population is terrible at saving for retirement. Look at the state of 401(k) plans for those near retirement.
So many relying on 401's lost their shirts in 2008. Those on SS took no hit.
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Old 12-08-2013, 04:07 PM
 
Location: Sector 001
9,054 posts, read 7,695,597 times
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there is no social security trust fund... at this point the social security 'tax' is an extra income tax... the difference is that this tax has an income cap, so the rich don't have to pay it above a certain income level. I'm of the belief that this loophole should be patched and that the social security tax should have no income limit.... basically the people with the highest tax burden are upper middle class types making between 50-150k per year. The self employed in particular pay a huge chunk extra in taxes.

  • Employees — the Social Security tax rate is 6.2 percent on income under $113,700 through the end of 2013. The Medicare tax rate is 1.45 percent of all income;
  • Employers — the Social Security tax rate is 6.2 percent. The Medicare tax rate is 1.45 percent; and
  • Self-employed —the Social Security tax rate is 12.4 percent on income under $113,700 through the end of 2013. The Medicare tax rate is 2.9 percent.
Basically once you hit that magic $113K level you are rewarded with no longer having to pay that tax.
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Old 12-08-2013, 05:25 PM
 
Location: Kennedy Heights, Ohio. USA
2,434 posts, read 1,921,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydive Outlaw View Post
01 - 80% of Americans are either too lazy or too dumb to actually save for 'retirement', so the government has to mandate that a tax exists (paid for 1/2 by the taxpayer and 1/2 by the employer) so that they do not starve and become homeless when they are older.

02 - Most employers (if not all) try to pay employees the minimum that a person would need to 'earn' just to be able to survive and pay for their daily and monthly living expenses in the present time. Any employers that would pay their employees enough to put away and save for retirement would be pushed out of the 'free market' by other companies that did not do that and paid their employees less.
Your first 2 points contradict each other. You point out that most Americans are too lazy or dumb to actually save money but then say most Americans only earn enough money just to survive with no surplus income to save. You point out that employers risk insolvency if they decide to pay wages above the minimum to provide workers food, shelter, and clothing because of low cost competition from competitors . How can someone save for retirement when all their income is going towards food, shelter and clothing.
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Old 12-08-2013, 06:25 PM
 
Location: Kennedy Heights, Ohio. USA
2,434 posts, read 1,921,680 times
Reputation: 1843
Social Security as a tax exists because during the Great Depression there was a great outcry for social welfare programs including old age pensions to relieve the economic suffering of the masses during that time. The Senator Huey Long of Louisiana was planning to run for President in 1936 and his ensuing popularity from his "Share Our Wealth" program motivated President Roosevelt to propose old age pensions and other social welfare programs of the Second New Deal in January 1935. Roosevelt even admitted in private in trying to "steal Long's thunder" by enacting many programs of the Second New Deal such as Social Security.
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