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View Poll Results: Is the US losing its economic dominance?
Yes, But We can get it back 27 49.09%
Yes, and its too late to get it back 17 30.91%
No, were still number 1!!! 10 18.18%
Dunno 1 1.82%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-12-2007, 08:15 AM
 
201 posts, read 881,274 times
Reputation: 83

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[quote=randian;2229907]Which deficit? The trade deficit? As I said, it's irrelevant. Why should we impoverish ourselves by refusing to buy energy from others?


Quote:
As long as we can pay. If I owe you five hundred dollars, I have a problem. If I owe you 500 billion dollars, you have a problem.
The US has given the rest of the world, specifically China, the means to force the US to pay. Look at all the concessions the US has to continuously make to pass any kind of joint legislation with, not just China, but almost any country controlling huge amounts of former US manufacturing capability. Furthermore, China is buying influence around the globe with the careless dollars pooring in to their economy, including in the US's own back yard.


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That's the past. We have grown beyond that and become wealthier by doing so. Living in the past guarantees poverty.
Innovation and "mental" items are only of value to someone who produces, manufactures or uses that technology. When other economies get to the point of being able to develop comparitable technology, or even better, as evidence suggest they will before long, the US will no longer be of any value in its production, and will be reduced to an internal service sector economy. Basically everyone working at Walmart, to be able to afford to shop at Walmart.


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We can't both be abandoning the industries of our forefathers and living on their accomplishments.
Yes we can. Our forefathers accomplishments built the US, and starting with the greedy baby boomers, we have been destroying it ever since. The huge middle class that built this country is gone. We now have a rigidly tiered two class system, that is swallowing more and more people in to the lower "class", while a small handful lifting that wealth and moving above the middle class into the higher "class". This is a pure recipe for disaster. In every case in history, this type of thing did not bode very well.


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Yes our government is becoming more socialist. Vote for people who won't do that.
"Socialism" is used so freely these days, I dont believe it even has a definition any longer.


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Why would they stop accepting dollars? Who has a better currency?
The Euro is already a better currency.
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Old 12-12-2007, 07:59 PM
 
5,760 posts, read 11,071,298 times
Reputation: 4949
Good gordy, Randian -- I am about ready to demote you from even Sophomore level econ. Where to start?

Quote:
Originally Posted by randian View Post
Which deficit? The trade deficit? As I said, it's irrelevant. Why should we impoverish ourselves by refusing to buy energy from others?
At this point, energy is money. As was Gold in its day. At this point we are burning money by burning fuel imported from others. Not a real bright long term plan. Continuing this is a major cause of our debt and path towards poverty.

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As long as we can pay. If I owe you five hundred dollars, I have a problem. If I owe you 500 billion dollars, you have a problem.
sure, and the Titanic was too big to sink.

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That's the past. We have grown beyond that and become wealthier by doing so. Living in the past guarantees poverty.
Not learning from the past ensure failure. Our recent 30 years past indicates that unbalanced trade will indebt our whole country. Not a leap of brain power if you think this through.

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We can't both be abandoning the industries of our forefathers and living on their accomplishments. Yes our government is becoming more socialist. Vote for people who won't do that.
Your routines are just mindless jargon, aren't they?

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Why would they stop accepting dollars? Who has a better currency?

As others have pointed out -- Euros, among others. We have become so weak in this area by foolishness such as you spout, that our own currency is weapon used against US.

http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=152713

Last edited by Philip T; 12-12-2007 at 08:56 PM..
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Old 12-12-2007, 10:04 PM
 
Location: Boca Raton, FL
711 posts, read 1,788,045 times
Reputation: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
Good gordy, Randian -- I am about ready to demote you from even Sophomore level econ.
Please do. I can't wait.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T
At this point, energy is money. As was Gold in its day. At this point we are burning money by burning fuel imported from others. Not a real bright long term plan. Continuing this is a major cause of our debt and path towards poverty.
What do you mean by "burning money"? Being profit-maximizing actors, oil companies are not going to pay more for imported oil than they do for domestic oil.

How does buying foreign oil create debt? Who owes this debt, and to whom is it owed? How does buying oil from the least expensive source cause poverty?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T
sure, and the Titanic was too big to sink.
No, but you seem to suffer from the absurd delusion that debtors do not have leverage over their creditors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T
Not learning from the past ensure failure. Our recent 30 years past indicates that unbalanced trade will indebt our whole country. Not a leap of brain power if you think this through.
I have thought it through. A trade deficit is not debt and does not create debt. Trade deficits do not impoverish us. If they did our economic growth would be lower in years with such deficits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T
As others have pointed out -- Euros, among others. We have become so weak in this area by foolishness such as you spout, that our own currency is weapon used against US.
A weapon? Strong words. Please explain the mechanism by which Iran selling oil in yen hurts us economically.

Let them use Euros. Our economic growth rate is a lot higher than Europe's. In the long run, the Euro isn't a "better store of value" because the underlying economy is weaker.
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Old 12-13-2007, 08:33 AM
 
Location: Heartland Florida
9,324 posts, read 25,794,744 times
Reputation: 5027
This is what I cannot understand. If your debt is growing, how can your economy be growing? We are no longer producers but consumers. Money has no value, only what you can buy with it. What is our "national debt"? What is our GNP? Today's United States is a joke and the population is more segregated by class than ever. We are addicted to oil, a resource we can no longer find enough of in our own land. Globalization has dispersed technology. The only ones who benefit here are the central bankers who control the world's money. Regular citizens are dealing with over 10% inflation and are on the fast track to ruin.
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:33 AM
 
103 posts, read 431,832 times
Reputation: 62
reduced to an internal service sector economy. Basically everyone working at Walmart, to be able to afford to shop at Walmart.

We are there!

Wal-Mart draws huge crowd - of applicants

Some say 6,000 job hunters a reflection on economy
Monday, November 26, 2007Zachary Lewis
Plain Dealer Reporter
As the world's largest private employer, Wal-Mart is used to being greeted by large numbers of applicants almost every time it opens a new store.
But the 6,000-plus people who applied for jobs at the new Supercenter in Cleveland's Steelyard Commons took everyone, even Wal-Mart, by surprise.
"We had to recount [the applications] three times," said Mia Masten, Wal-Mart's director of corporate affairs, Midwest division.

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaind...l=2&thispage=1
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:38 AM
 
2,356 posts, read 3,200,950 times
Reputation: 864
Quote:
Originally Posted by crystalblue View Post
Without any manufacturing?

Are we slitting our throat by continuing to move manufacturing offshore?
You asked several questions, so IMO:

Question 1:
Can the US still be an economic superpower?
yes

Question 2:
Can the U.S. still be an economic superpower without any manufacturing?
probably not

Question 3:
Are we slitting our throat by continuing to move manufacturing offshore?
no
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:47 AM
 
103 posts, read 431,832 times
Reputation: 62
Last night as i went through the check out at wallyworld, the cashier was talking to another employee who was saying that she was taking a job elsewhere for $11 an hour. The cashier then said, you aren't going to be my manager anymore? I thought, oh ****! This "manager" was making less than $11? We are so screwed!
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:00 AM
 
2,356 posts, read 3,200,950 times
Reputation: 864
Quote:
Originally Posted by tallrick View Post
This is what I cannot understand. If your debt is growing, how can your economy be growing?
If your economy were growing faster than your debt, I suppose.

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We are no longer producers but consumers.
We're both producers and consumers.

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Globalization has dispersed technology. The only ones who benefit here are the central bankers who control the world's money.
Really? I bought a pair of Levi's last week for $19. In the early 90's, they were twice that much, at least. Globalization brings us lower prices for many different goods.
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:15 AM
 
2,356 posts, read 3,200,950 times
Reputation: 864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lethal_Poison View Post
Innovation and "mental" items are only of value to someone who produces, manufactures or uses that technology.
Yes, and everyone uses, or benefits from that innovation and technology, and usually they don't know it.

For example, when you buy a bottle of shampoo at Wal-Mart, there is a sophisticated inventory system (a "mental item", designed in America) that tracks real-time inventory, thus reducing shipping costs, warehousing costs, and administrative costs. When you ship with UPS, there is a sophisticated GPS tracking system (a "mental item", designed in America) that makes it cheaper for you to ship things.

These are all examples of technology that the rest of the world is willing to pay us for. And there's always one going out the door; we used to be major steel producers, back when steel was innovative. Now we aren't. We used to be major television producers, back when televisions were innovative. Now we aren't.


Quote:
When other economies get to the point of being able to develop comparitable technology, or even better, as evidence suggest they will before long, the US will no longer be of any value in its production, and will be reduced to an internal service sector economy.
NOBODY on the planet innovates or develops technology like we do. China and India, for all their explosive growth, are still steps behind us. Right now, their economies are being driven by our technologies.

In the event that these countries do match our wealth, innovation, and power, then the tables will be flipped; our economy might be driven by their technologies. It doesn't matter; we'll both be wealthier for it.
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:21 AM
 
103 posts, read 431,832 times
Reputation: 62
Really? I bought a pair of Levi's last week for $19. In the early 90's, they were twice that much, at least. Globalization brings us lower prices for many different goods.

What i have noticed is how inferior the quality of these name brands have become. Levi's, nike's etc. are pretty much junk anymore. Why? Well...
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