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Old 05-17-2014, 10:28 PM
 
1,013 posts, read 907,286 times
Reputation: 489

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Quote:
Paper work is irrelevant.
false

paperwork + accountants on taxes cost billions to the economy per year.
waste of resources and labor when accountants can become engineers or doctors instead.

such as too many laws and thus lawyers lowering productivity in the over all economy

too many financial people/lawyers/politicians/accountants


Quote:
The Federal Reserve is not a cancer to our economy. Bolding an ignorant statement is a reflection on the poster.
false

Federal Reserve is a cancer because they are frauds. and pretty corrupt. cough.
insiders at FED leaking info to friends? yeah sure not corrupt/frauds, how naive. also if you were unaware this info is public knowledge already and proven

also there is proven information that FED stole our money to give to foreign banks to bail them out, basically their friends.
20 trillion without batting an eye at 0%.

so that 20 trillion would be 100k to every man woman and child of the USA whom are citizens. what a sweet heart deal can I get that?

in the dead of the night taking the power to coin money at Jeykll island documented in history this is not conspiracy but fact.
such that congress would relinquish the right of money creation to private banksters.

We the need the power of coining currency/money back in our hands NOT banks.
as it is we whom create the wealth of the nation not the FED.

unfortunately corrupt politicians sold our rights away into slavery
there was a reason that the congress was given the right to coin money and not the private banks for the nation or the president.

and also 16th amendment did not exist until the FED was put into existence by fraudulent means
thus making the whole amendment illegitimate.
fraud begets fraud.

Thomas Jefferson killed the first bank of the US. The author of the constitution and bill of rights.
Andrew Jackson killed the Second bank of the US.
So whom will kill the third bank of the US?

Last edited by gen811; 05-17-2014 at 10:39 PM..
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Old 05-17-2014, 10:47 PM
 
1,013 posts, read 907,286 times
Reputation: 489
Quote:
Insult noted.

My first disagreement is in your definition of harmful. Harmful to the worker or harmful to the country? Income tax is most reliable, this least harmful.
harmful to the worker and the country.

either way the worker will pay. some where in the supply chain.

and depends on where you are shifting the burden.
is the country considered all the rich folk
or is the country considered for the people in general.

if you say it is only for rich income tax is fine because rich pay mostly no income tax as a % because they make capital gains.
and they have loopholes.

this makes sales/property tax the fairest of them all.
stupid poor people think it would hurt them though

Sorry but seems some people want income tax no matter what.
so I need to drill it into you what you are actually asking for.

And reliable does not mean efficient. reliable for stealing from which class of citizens?

the most reliable is taken from the middle class.
poor people keep saying they are taxing the rich when they are not.
they are taxing the middle class first.

repeat
then the rich hold it in off shore accounts. therefore the efficiency is stealing from the MIDDLE CLASS again not the Rich.
repeat
thus income tax = taxation of middle class not rich


Quote:
Also false. A capital gain is income tax. It just is taxed at a lower rate for a misguided reason.
agreed but the reason is to let rich people off the hook because the elites make most of their money from capital gains.
that's their income. but since the rich and lawyers classify it as such I am using their definition of different income streams.
that is their loop hole after all.

and they are fighting to keep it open. that is the rich/elites fault not mine.
and poor people keep on complaining to increase income taxes on the rich except they raise their own tax rates.
some poor people are just stupid.

and I will keep on repeating that mantra until poor people realize that they are increasing taxes on themselves.

Quote:
No, income tax directly targets the upper middle class (top 10% or so). The average family on a middle class income ($50,000 median) isn't pay much in income tax. The middle class is hurt the most by property tax.
false.
payroll taxes increased.

your propaganda needs work.
income taxes do not hurt upper middle or rich at all

most of their gains are from bonuses or property gains.
you could say especially the ultra wealthy their wealth are capital gains/bonuses/property value increases


middle class people at 50k do NOT HAVE much PROPERTY sorry I don't know where you live
but if you work your biggest expense = income tax.
You have no property until/unless you are old.

most people RENT.
especially in the states.

people that own property are in the mid west or country side.

people in the city are renters not owners, they need to find jobs after all.
once they work for 5 years at least then they look to buy a home.

fact is not that many people own a home right now.
this nation went back to renting SORRY ABOUT THAT.

fact is middle class do not OWN. they RENT.

upper middle class and rich own houses not rent.

middle class might own as well because they think they can afford 10x their income on a 500k home when they make 50k.
but then fail and file for bankruptcy.

then they cannot find a job because they cannot move.
so then they turn into poor folk.


thus income tax does NOT directly hit the rich/upper middle

property tax does
upper middle might be a doctor though. where they make a whole lot of income and may be able to afford a to buy instead of rent.

this is where you proved my point
property tax hurts rich/upper middle most

Income tax touches and hurts middle class the most

also since when did people consider 80k rich?

UM NO inflation is 50-100% since 2008 now.
80k is actually 40k-50k in 2008. at least.

people keep forgetting to calculate M0-M1 numbers.

Last edited by gen811; 05-17-2014 at 10:59 PM..
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Old 05-17-2014, 11:08 PM
 
1,013 posts, read 907,286 times
Reputation: 489
here read this

FairTax - Income Taxes vs. Sales Taxes

come back after that.
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Old 05-17-2014, 11:17 PM
 
1,013 posts, read 907,286 times
Reputation: 489
please note this is why I suggest a combination of property tax + sales tax.
such that sales tax wont go all the way up encourage tax avoidance too much.

ahem nyc about 9% tax already.
many of us try to order things with no taxation.

max would likely be around 20%
after that people will find outlets to run away from the tax.

therefore to make up for it.
more property tax would be needed if you want to replace income tax.

therefore.
the next least intrusive tax would be property tax after sales tax.

since services are provided such as security/firefighters/schools/etc all for protection of property.
property tax should be put into place.

this will in fact decrease speculation and prevent people from just jacking up prices such that the area becomes a ghost town where honest people cannot live then inviting gangs to live there for free and causing crime.

there can be ways to decrease the property tax, such as having more occupation of the area and not just empty lots to speculate with.

either you use it or you get taxed more.
so it can encourage development while actually having people in them in mind.
not just jacking up prices but actually using them.

this may cause extra paperwork though just like income tax but less so.

sales tax is still the easiest one with less paper work.
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Old 05-17-2014, 11:34 PM
 
28,109 posts, read 63,506,475 times
Reputation: 23230
I couldn't disagree more...

Food, Shelter and Clothing are the essentials of life...

Property Tax left uncontrolled is incideous... plus in most States based on an OPINION of value.

Several Tax Assessors went to jail prior to Prop 13 and others commited sucide for playing games with assessments.

Prop 13 virtually eliminated this... Prop 13 replaced volumes of tax code with a few simply paragraphs and greatly reduced the personel needed to administer...

My county charges a fee for a property owner to even question an a tax bill... said too many were appealing so imposing a fee was used to discourage.

Tax based on Fair Market Value at the time of transfer... couldn't be any simpler... just like paying tax on a washing machine or car...

Anyone that doesn't believe voters will rally to protect the roof over their heads in mis-informed.

I worked in Europe after graduation and made some close friends... Europe has a high "Sales" tax... up to 30% in the country I was working.... Property Tax is very low... basically to cover the cost of maintaining the roads and fire department...

My friends there owned property priced more than comparable California Property and couldn't believe the high taxes property owners pay... I'm over 9,000 on a property I paid 598k for in 2004... all 1725 square feet built in 1957 in East Oakland.

Income and Sales tax raise the bulk of revenue in Europe. No one worries about loosing a home because of unpaid taxes... it just doesn't happen there.

Think about it... if the sales tax makes something too expensive, many will do without or find an alternative.

Income Tax is similar... just about all of my collegues only wanted to work their 40 hour week because overtime had extra taxes so it really was working for less.
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Old 05-17-2014, 11:39 PM
 
26,181 posts, read 21,462,310 times
Reputation: 22766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
I couldn't disagree more...

Food, Shelter and Clothing are the essentials of life...

Property Tax left uncontrolled is incideous... plus it just happens in most States based on an OPINION of value.

Several Tax Assessors went to jail prior to Prop 13 and others commited sucide for playing games with assessments.

Prop 13 virtually eliminated this... Prop 13 replaced volumes of tax code with a few simply paragraphs and greatly reduced the personel needed to administer...

Fair Market Value at the time of transfer... couldn't be any simpler... just like paying tax on a washing machine or car...

Anyone that doesn't believe voters will rally to protect the roof over their heads in mis-informed.

I work in Europe after graduation and made some close friends... Europe has a high "Sales" tax... up to 30% in the country I was working.... Propert Tax is very low... basically to cover the cost of maintaining the roads and fire department...

Income and Sales tax raise the bulk of revenue.

Think about it... if the sales tax makes something too expensive, many will do without or find an alternative.

Income Tax is similar... just about all of my collegues only wanted to work their 40 hour week because overtime had extra taxes so it really was working for less.


Overtime isn't taxed any different that regular time. If you are talking about withholding you can adjust that. Getting paid 1.5 times your norm is more money
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Old 05-17-2014, 11:43 PM
 
28,109 posts, read 63,506,475 times
Reputation: 23230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowexpectations View Post
Overtime isn't taxed any different that regular time. If you are talking about withholding you can adjust that. Getting paid 1.5 times your norm is more money
Yes it is... just ask any of my collegues working In Germany... working over 40 hours a week is penalized there because it is seen as taking a job away from someone... also in Austria.

They have a very high sales tax and I could support this coming here if Property Tax/Income Tax are lowered.
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Old 05-17-2014, 11:55 PM
 
26,181 posts, read 21,462,310 times
Reputation: 22766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
Yes it is... just ask any of my collegues working In Germany... working over 40 hours a week is penalized there because it is seen as taking a job away from someone... also in Austria.

They have a very high sales tax and I could support this coming here if Property Tax/Income Tax are lowered.
In the US overtime is not taxed any different
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Old 05-18-2014, 12:04 AM
 
28,109 posts, read 63,506,475 times
Reputation: 23230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowexpectations View Post
In the US overtime is not taxed any different
My comments on overtime are from the time I worked in Germany and Austria... countries with very low Property Tax and homes that have been in families going back generations...

At that time Sales tax had 3 groups... necessities like Food at 10%, most other times at 20% and luxury items likes cars at 32% sales tax... most of my friends with nice homes still only had one family car...

Just about all of them... even the ones living in apartments all had balcony or common area vegetable gardens...

Why anyone thinks higher Property Tax is a good thing is beyond me
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Old 05-18-2014, 05:38 AM
 
9,675 posts, read 9,964,907 times
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With all the foreign made products coming into the country in the global market expanding like never before and America made products are being outsourced outside America , Jobs are disappearing as the investors are making the money getting cheap labor in foreign lands ...... Government are now raising sale tax and they should lower business tax , and cut the red tape of over regulation in business and cut Government size to manage the debt which government of America which could double the debt since the last president in no time which is a no go for most business ....See sales tax may be harmful but so is income tax and business tax and corporate tax and the green scare tax then the regulation which business have to hire people to over come the regulation like safety and the business structure taxes and now health tax and pension tax electricity tax auditors fees and it would close down the best of business which goes beyond their cash flow , as it could end up a desert of closed business
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