Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Unfortunately, parents are not rooted in the hypothetical when in comes to children. A single bad decision can really impact a child's life. For an adult without children, we can learn from our mistakes and move on.... take responsibility for those decisions. Its not that easy once children are in the picture.
The early years (12 and younger) aren't too expensive assuming you have good medical insurance. The loss of a mom's income may set some couple's back. Babies don't eat much and if mom nurses then even more money can be saved. Clothing and preschool is affordable. Sports & activates don't cost too much at this age because the parents is just beginning to learn what their child's interests & talents are. If you have your child enrolled in private schools the cost will increase greatly over time.
As teen years approach that is usually when a parent begins to notice a change in the amount of money it cost for food (they eat more), clothing, music classes and around this time kids start the club (travelling teams) sports. Of course the activities are optional but too much idle time isn't good for this age group. Cars, car insurance, braces can add up. Teens can start to contribute financially with part-time jobs at this time too.
Enter the college years. Yes, college is expensive but it can be even more expensive in the long run if they don't get their degrees. So, yes, children are expensive but they are worth it.
Ask a parent living in a modest home making low wages if kids are expensive.
Living in a small town, this is what I have observed all my life. Perhaps this is why those coming from upper middle and above find this topic so shocking. I don't know.
I'm sure you could, but I'm not willing to drive into the city for cheaper childcare. I want my kids close to home and with their friends in a familiar environment. Do you realize there is more to life than saving money? And, again, there are tons of other things kids need that cost money. You can google child care prices all you want. You are clueless about what it really takes to raise a child, financially or otherwise. The more you post, the more obvious that is.
Yes, there is more to life than saving money, but I'm just pointing out that raising a child can be relatively affordable if one chooses to make it that way.
You see, there's your problem. You're expecting the real world to conform to your idea of what's reasonable or sensible. That's not how it works. A New Yorker on inimum wage can't go to their landlord and explain that they only earn this much, and 30% of that is what they'll be paying for rent, TYVM. It seems right to you that we big city folks would be swimming with cash to fund our child care and mortgages and gorcery bills. Problem is, places aren't expensive because people can afford it, they're expensive because lots of people want to live there.
This New Yorker should move. I mean lots of people want to drive BMWs too, but it's stupid to try and make that happen on minimum wage as many people will try to do.
Yes, there is more to life than saving money, but I'm just pointing out that raising a child can be relatively affordable if one chooses to make it that way.
But you need to realize that many of these choices are not practical, depend on family help many do not have, are extremely selfish or lazy, or are too simple of a view and don't take the nuances and irregulars into account.
I don't see how sleeping in until noon and avoiding schedules (as you described in your other thread about early retirement) and making your kid graduate college with poor grades due to working too many hours, as well as huge debt, is anything but selfish and lazy.
So it seems to me that your argument is basically that you can cut your costs by being, let's just say, a real, real jerk towards everybody else. This is where we draw the distinction between frugal and cheap.
Most of us care about morality and are not willing or able to go to such lengths to cut costs by pushing the work onto others, including your own kids. You can say all you want but I'm sure the parents on this forum will tell you that with that attitude, you are not fit to be a parent. You must be willing to do your part to bring kids up if you have them - it's basic responsibility, not a luxury or an option.
Do you know how much it costs to move? Lets start: deposits for utilities/apartment, drivers license, car registration/tag, move of household, find job, find daycare, ...
Small price to pay considering length of childhood.
Quote:
You do not get out much, do you? We live in the far outskirts of DFW - 1200 will not get a 1br.
Move.
Quote:
Assumptions are assumptions. Neither my first nor my current vehicle are equipped for a child seat.
What kind of car do you have? What is the market value? Could it be sold and the money used to buy another car?
Adults can keep the same clothes for a while and reduce the cost. Children have growing bodies and a given set of clothes will only fit for so long...
This is true. What my parents did was buy clothing a little larger than I needed which usually allowed me to get 2 years worth of wear out of it. My mom also had friends with children and instead of throwing their clothes away, they would offer them to us.
Quote:
It's absolutely not splitting hairs. If you move further from work for a place suitable for family life, that commute adds up. Gas $$(cha-ching!)$$, maintenance $$(cha-ching!)$$ and added vehicle depreciation $$(cha-ching!)$$ .
As I said, it will depend on the car. My parents bought ~$8-9k 4cyl vehicles and drove them 10-15 yrs (dad drove his Datsun 510 from '77-'92 lol). Vehicle depreciation means nothing if you're driving cars for there full useful lifespan. Most modern vehicles require very little in the way of maintenance - oil changes every 10-15k miles, air filter change every ~30k. Spark plugs every 100k. Brake pads perhaps every 50k.
Quote:
Sure, if you are willing to have no social life whatsoever. I personally would find that a sad life hardly worth living, but of course different people have different preferences.
Consider this your introduction to how the lower middle class and below live life.
Quote:
This is precisely why I said a bigger vehicle after the second or third child, not after the first. It is difficult but not impossible to fit three child car seats across the back row of a carefully chosen sedan.
If you have 3 children you should expect to have higher cost. It's like say a 100lb dog isn't that expensive to care for....but if you get 5 100lb dogs...yeah, it's expensive. Those planning on 3 children should use a little common sense.
Quote:
The incidentals go up though, and you clearly don't appreciate the value of a post-secondary education based on the way you continue poo-pooing the importance of paying for it.
I do value it in some case for some people. However, I don't worship it like some people. I certainly don't think every parent should have to pay for it or that every child should be forced to go.
Quote:
If you are lucky with relatives, don't mind having zero social life, have a good health plan, nothing ever goes wrong, and you selfishly deprive your kids of a good continued education to support your lifestyle, then yes, your cost figures are reasonable, but it still costs a fortune and they are by no means cheap.
Sorry, but having kids requires sacrifices for many people. My parents certainly weren't playing tennis and sipping champagne at the country club every weekend. You seem to be utterly confused about how working class people raise children.
I agree. It seems like the cost can vary from not that much to very expensive - it just depends on the situation.
For myself - relatively healthy, went to a small town public school, rode the school bus to grandmother's house, wore some hand-me-downs (maybe $250 worth of new clothes every year), received about $300-400/yr worth of toys/sports fees/equipment and didn't eat a lot (healthy weight, breakfast/lunch at school with parents making relatively modest dinners).
To me it seems like things have changed since I grew up. What you describe is pretty much how it was for us. My grandmother lived with us and my mom worked only part time if she worked at all. So, my parents never paid for child care. I ate breakfast at home before school, brought a sack lunch, and had a snack at home after school. My mom and grandmother cooked dinner every night. Fast food didn't exist when and where we lived with the exception of the seasonal hot dog stand at the beach.
I think you could still spend a relatively small amount to raise a child and I'm sure people still do. I think many people in recent times have confused needs and wants. If you supply for the most part just actual needs then it may not cost much to raise a child. However, if wants are viewed as needs, then it can get very expensive.
Using the example of how much a new born costs in the first year could look like this:
* Diapers (one time purchase of $150-$200, plus water and electricity for washing and drying diapers.)
* Clothes (You usually get a lot of what you need at your baby shower, so let's say another $300 - $500. A lot less if you buy at a thrift store, yard sale, or flea market)
* Baby furniture, stroller, etc. (You may get some of this at baby shower, so maybe $500. Could spend less buying second hand items).
* Food (If baby is breastfeed the first year, then at some point cereal and soft foods are introduced. I'm not up on the cost, but maybe six months worth would be under $500.
* Medical costs: There are well baby visits and with insurance there would be some co-pays. I'm assuming the cost of having the baby isn't included and that we're talking about a healthy baby.
* Day care: If there is a stay-at-home mom or dad than zero. Otherwise, this would be a big expense. I'm not up on what it costs full time for a baby.
So, I think it could be as low as a couple thousand the first year. If you need day care and pay for diaper service or use disposable diapers, don't breastfeed and buy everything new it could be well in excess of $12,000.
But you need to realize that many of these choices are not practical, depend on family help many do not have, are extremely selfish or lazy, or are too simple of a view and don't take the nuances and irregulars into account.
I don't see how sleeping in until noon and avoiding schedules (as you described in your other thread about early retirement) and making your kid graduate college with poor grades due to working too many hours, as well as huge debt, is anything but selfish and lazy.
So it seems to me that your argument is basically that you can cut your costs by being, let's just say, a real, real jerk towards everybody else. This is where we draw the distinction between frugal and cheap.
Most of us care about morality and are not willing or able to go to such lengths to cut costs by pushing the work onto others, including your own kids. You can say all you want but I'm sure the parents on this forum will tell you that with that attitude, you are not fit to be a parent. You must be willing to do your part to bring kids up if you have them - it's basic responsibility, not a luxury or an option.
What did I say that wasn't practical? How am I a jerk toward other people? Where did I say my child would have poor grades?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
