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Old 09-11-2014, 08:49 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
30,018 posts, read 18,869,092 times
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People believe in Reaganomics or what's known as free markets because that's the only economic model that provides wealth to people and fosters creativity as opposed to the Communist model which has failed every time it's been tried.
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Old 09-11-2014, 08:52 PM
 
2,485 posts, read 2,210,159 times
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America's situation today isn't created by reaganomics. Trace it back further. It was created by the complacency, the powerful and self serving unions, the entitled mindset, the broadening of social programs that took for granted-still today-where the money comes from and how it was built.

Basically, we got used to having money and entitlement. We were lucky because the war destroyed our competitors. But since we got used to it, it is just correct for us to continue it. This is American exceptionalism.

The end result? Businesses actively sought to open new markets, to globalize jobs and opportunities, and to bring prosperity to people who aren't as entitled.

For most jobs, there are thousands of people who could do your job. What makes you special? Americans like to regard themselves as special, all the while acting privileged to the core. These people are what is white privilege. These people are the cornerstones of American exceptionalism.
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Old 09-11-2014, 08:59 PM
 
22,620 posts, read 24,466,288 times
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Much of the boom and bust is created by our own corrupt Fedgov and its insane policies.

If you live in a dream world.....it feels real good to latch onto a few boogeymen and shriek, holler and point the finger of blame at the demon who caused ALL of the problems.

The reality is the Fedgov is responsible for the broken system....but most people either like it that way or they blame the wrong entity.
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Old 09-11-2014, 09:03 PM
 
2,485 posts, read 2,210,159 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tall Traveler View Post
People believe in Reaganomics or what's known as free markets because that's the only economic model that provides wealth to people and fosters creativity as opposed to the Communist model which has failed every time it's been tried.
If the liberal ideology works, there wouldn't be so many people against it. You can get followers, but the fact that a significant portion of the society doesn't buy into that shows its failure.
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Old 09-11-2014, 09:53 PM
 
3,750 posts, read 4,944,749 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Costaexpress View Post
America's situation today isn't created by reaganomics. Trace it back further. It was created by the complacency, the powerful and self serving unions, the entitled mindset, the broadening of social programs that took for granted-still today-where the money comes from and how it was built.

Basically, we got used to having money and entitlement. We were lucky because the war destroyed our competitors. But since we got used to it, it is just correct for us to continue it. This is American exceptionalism.

The end result? Businesses actively sought to open new markets, to globalize jobs and opportunities, and to bring prosperity to people who aren't as entitled.

For most jobs, there are thousands of people who could do your job. What makes you special? Americans like to regard themselves as special, all the while acting privileged to the core. These people are what is white privilege. These people are the cornerstones of American exceptionalism.
I think there are better ways to provide opportunities for the third world than to consumerize them and turn them into clones of Americans.
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Old 09-11-2014, 09:56 PM
 
3,750 posts, read 4,944,749 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tall Traveler View Post
People believe in Reaganomics or what's known as free markets because that's the only economic model that provides wealth to people and fosters creativity as opposed to the Communist model which has failed every time it's been tried.
Yes because obviously the only alternative to economic Darwinism is the USSR.
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Old 09-11-2014, 09:56 PM
 
7,846 posts, read 6,384,784 times
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Originally Posted by valsteele View Post
Didn't the crash of 2007 and rising inequality and poverty in America prove well enough that the "dream of the 80s" is no longer alive? I hear libertarian and conservative types and even some liberals still sing the praise of deregulation and flat taxes.
Because the right-wing corporate media continues to declare that it works. Evidence says it doesn't.
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Old 09-11-2014, 10:27 PM
 
459 posts, read 482,906 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidwestRedux View Post

I don't even know where to being here. The growth that took place after the second world war did not happen because we built a dam in the dessert. It happened because the rest of the developed world had been damaged or destroyed, leaving the US as the only relevant economic power for a generation. This is why in the 1950's a man could support his family on a single factory worker's income. Supply and demand. We had almost all of the supply and the whole world had demand.


Yes and homeless people have, on average, less debt than millionaires. US debt to GDP as of 2013- 71.8% (I think this has gone up a little since 2009...)
Japan - 243.2%, Germany 78.1%, U.K. - 90.1%, France - 93.5%, Italy - 132.6%. China - 22.4%. Any questions?
The one area that we probably do agree is that the US has way too much debt. That's overspending, not-overtaxation.
I think you're saying you believe in Reaganomics through the government. All that tax money "trickles down" right?


That's an awful lot of big words to say that you believe in determinism. On a completely unrelated note, this is an excellent book: On Writing Well: The Classic Guide to Writing Nonfiction by William Zinsser
1) Though half true, it's only half true. We had growth during the progressive era crackdowns, during the New Deal after capitalism was saved from itself (again), and post-1960 when Western Europe was rebuilt and had 5 years of catch up growth under its belt after said rebuild.

2) Your lack of intellectual honesty is astonishing. Indeed, Japan is a nation that has lower tax rates than the U.S. and a similar social safety net. It's also not a European Social Democracy which is what you had referenced. Actually, you had said European "nanny state" but the point was clear. In any case, you skipped Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Finland. Those are the ultimate nanny states, are they not? Anyways, Sweden is at 38%, Norway at 30% (and actually at a vast surplus when you consider their sovereign fund!), Finland at 53%, and Denmark (the highest tax nation of all!) at 45%! Yet you try to use Japan, the only developed nation with a lower aggregate tax rate than the U.S. (and rapidly growing inequality), to prove your point!? Hah!

As to your last barb.... it makes no sense. Reaganomics is the idea that what benefits the wealthy will eventually benefit the middle class and poor. It hasn't and wages have stagnated even as inflation-adjusted GDP per capita has grown robustly for 30 years. Advocating for greater wealth redistribution and stronger regulations on the market is the antithesis of Reaganomics.

3) Sorry, I want to understand this. When you seemingly mock determinism, are you saying you "believe" in uncaused causes!? Such a position is inherently and necessarily illogical unless you believe that some mystical homunculus, free from the laws of physics, drives human brain activity. Of course, that's not really relevant. I referenced documented failures of human behavior that render the "free market" an inefficient system for allocating resources and creating human happiness. While I certainly am a determinist, those critiques of human behavior stand strong on their own footing. I strung together only a very few of those cognitive failures so as not to overwhelm you; the idea that I shoved too many large words into an overly complex sentence is balderdash. People in the 18th and 19th century wrote as "well" as Zinsser or Orwell, and essays from those eras had far more clauses and subclauses and "big words" than anything I could dream of writing. In the same way that I could never scale the literary heights of Victorian pretension, you can't even begin to address libertarianism's gross oversimplification of human behavior. Instead you ignore the critique and attempt to chide my writing. How base.
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Old 09-11-2014, 10:33 PM
 
Location: Purgatory
6,367 posts, read 6,239,346 times
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They still believe because its easy to point to the stat that tells you that the average worker salary skyrocketed during that period. Many people do not understand that when you extrapolate that info, you can easily see that the rise was due to the largest gap between the rich and "everyone else." (ie, increase in CEO pay, stagnant worker wages, average them together and it looks like wages increased.)
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Old 09-11-2014, 10:35 PM
 
459 posts, read 482,906 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tall Traveler View Post
People believe in Reaganomics or what's known as free markets because that's the only economic model that provides wealth to people and fosters creativity as opposed to the Communist model which has failed every time it's been tried.
When Social Democracy has been integrated into advanced economies, it has worked. When the market is left to its own devices, it crashes and gets stuck in grotesque cycles of overproduction and/or underconsumption. It also does a very bad job of increasing utility. It's sad to have to point out that wealth without some corresponding increase in happiness or life expectancy or something MEANINGFUL... is worthless. It is true that global capitalism is making it harder to sustain Social Democracy, but that just means we (in developed nations) should restrict capital flows so that we don't all race to the bottom. I'm not patriotic or nationalist by any principle, but global capitalism has only one endgame: a two-tiered global economy in which the Iron Boot of non-democratic capitalism stomps on mankind forever.

Anyway, the economy isn't some videogame where the only goal is a high score. It is only the set of mechanisms by which we attempt to increase human happiness, decrease our toil and misery, and pursue our interests. To the degree the free market fails in doing that, it should be restrained. To the degree it inhibits us in those pursuits, it should be pilloried.
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