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It will simply be the haves who have everything they need. And the have nots (upper middle class- to poverty class) who "have not" to varying degrees. For example the upper middle class with not have any influence in politics, for they are not rich enough.Just because you own a lexus doesnt mean your senator is going to listen to what you have to say. Maybe if you owned a toy company he might lend an ear. The lower middle class will have not have a decent education for their children or decent neighborhoods to raise their children. The rest wont have much of anything.
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I know a senior programmer at citrix and he told me they cant find enough people and are struggling. They have had to out source their work to India and when the code comes back it is in such bad shape they have to re write the code.
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Based on my experience most poor outsourcing experiences are a result of poorly defined requirements and inadequate management.
Yes, there will continue to be demand for local work but with the advent of strong communication networks, remote management tools, and widely dispersed expertise, much more will be done with cheaper labor in remote locations.
I have managed very large multi-million dollar nationwide IT projects using local and or contract help when needed. Little or no travel was needed and on-site contract resources were used when hands on must be done while administration and software work was done from anywhere in the world. Hundreds of technical contributors managed as a large matrix team using extensive voice and computer communication networks
This is the key to the high productivity in this country... getting the job done on schedule with minimal resources.
as I said, IT and telecomm workers are in good positions, there is a worker shortage world wide for I.T. workers, so our jobs aren't going anywhere. But I hope everyone thinks like you and keeps avoiding our field, that is job security for me.
Unless you actually work in the I.T. field as a network admin, system admin, network engineer or programmer your opinion on the matter doesn't mean much. As I said, I work in the field and your assessment is far from reality, you have absolutely no clue what it takes to do any of the things being discussed obviously. By CNA I am going to assume you mean CCNA? CNA = Certified Nurse Assistant or CNA = Certified Novell Admin? If its the later, Novell is extremely minuscule. Also if you knew what you were talking about you would know such certs as CCIE is so difficult world wide you are not even talking 500 people who hold it. There is a WORLD WIDE I.T. shortage, jobs like these are not going anywhere.
I disagree. The CNA did mean Certified Novell but really it means Certified Network Administrator- meanning you can do both Novell and Microsoft. I agree that you may get decent pay for doing such and for setting up domains, firewalls, subnets and NAT. But if you think that there are going to be millions of new high paying jobs in this business, I would say that you are wrong. And I would also tell you the same for telecom because I am even closer to that being in the cellular industry. The major telecom players are not hiring anybody and they are planting fiber everywhere replacing copper which is going to mean far fewer jobs in the future because fiber does not require 1/10th the maintenance of the copper plant. I work with these guys all the time because our sites are fed by T1s and they will tell you work is slow and overtime that used to be plentiful is almost impossible to come by anymore.
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
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One of the biggest measuring sticks of the "middle class" in this country has been home ownership. What has and still is been going on in that sector should tell you alot about the future direction of the country. When I was a kid home ownership was the rule and not the exception. We owned our home and every other kid I went to school with lived in an owned home. We even had one kid in the class whos father was a taxi operator and even they owned the home they lived in. But if you look in many- if not most parts of the country today, such ownership is all but impossible for an ever declining number of people. In many metro areas not only could a taxi cab operator not buy a home but neither can a firefighter, cop, nurse, bus driver, retail worker, factory worker or most other "worker class" occupations. Both Bush and Clinton were guilty of mass fraud when they said "home ownership is at record levels". What they did not tell you is that much of this was actually the upper classes buying second and even third homes and the rest of it was propped up by subprime smoke and mirror lending that is now crashing to the ground and putting perhaps as many as 2 million people out of the homes they thought they "owned". So now we will soon have those who do manage to stay in their homes seeing a new thing and that is reverse equity which has never before happened. Many working people were counting on the wealth in their homes to retire on and that- and the coming pension crisis- is going to really undermine a great amount of working people in the country.
Wasn't America's capitalistic theory based on competition?
The lowest bidder doesn't always win, I think the U.S. just has to learn how to compete in the globalized environment. There are growing pains of course, but I have faith that our ability to foster entrepreneurship and innovation will eventually win out over other countries. The U.S. will continue to be the technological leader, creating new jobs in new feilds, when those new jobs become standardized they too may move overseas while american's perfect the next thing.
From what I've seen others say about these I.T jobs being outsourced and coming back useless, just tells me the U.S. can still compete and beat most other countries in the latest technological innovations.
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,259 posts, read 24,763,471 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregTraub
Wasn't America's capitalistic theory based on competition?
The lowest bidder doesn't always win, I think the U.S. just has to learn how to compete in the globalized environment. There are growing pains of course, but I have faith that our ability to foster entrepreneurship and innovation will eventually win out over other countries. The U.S. will continue to be the technological leader, creating new jobs in new feilds, when those new jobs become standardized they too may move overseas while american's perfect the next thing.
From what I've seen others say about these I.T jobs being outsourced and coming back useless, just tells me the U.S. can still compete and beat most other countries in the latest technological innovations.
I agree with that. I just think that the idea of a "middle class" is unnatural to any capitalist economic model. A pure capitalist model has 3 classes- a wealthy class, a worker class and the poor. Under pure capitalism, labour if performed by the cheapest source that can do the job right be that source in the country or out. And if the labour is unable to be moved and none of the natives wish to work for the lowest wage, immigrants are brought in to do the labour. The "middle class" as we know it is more a product of our democracy than it is our economy. Take my uncle in law. He is a truck driver and solidly "middle class" making between 70 and 80K a year. But the reason he makes that- aside from almost living on the road driving 12 hours a day- is because the laws of our democracy limit competition to him. They require him to have a special trucker driver's license and a physical every few years. They require that he drive no more than a certain number of hours a day. And they keep out foreign competition. If trucking operated under a more pure capitalist model, we would have 100,000 Mexicans over here driving trucks for 16 hours a day making $20,000 a year because the fact is that, if I were a business owner, I could hire them for that amount. And it is my belief that the country is headed in this direction.
Luckily there is no 100% pure economic model in practice as they all have their flaws and advantages.
Well, concerning the trucker example, we also have a litigious society, and the limits on competition sound more based on public safety, which is part of what the government should regulate. If there were 100,000 immigrants over here driving without the training to handle those 18 wheelers, falling asleep all the time from 16 hour days, and crashing into people and property, I'd think the cost of those 20K a year workers would balloon to well over the 70-80K your uncle in law is currently paid. I think you said it best, the cheapest labor that can do the job RIGHT
I think there are usually checks and balances that come about naturally with the mix of our capitalistic economy and republic/democratic government. Not saying it exists in all industries, but I'd think most skilled jobs would have similar checks that would keep the middle class wages high enough, for at least the forseeable future.
Inflation has killed us. The Federal Reserve system has removed the capital from the hands of the middle class and sent it to the wealthiest investors. The reason we are not competitive is that inflation forces us to take in more income for our necessities. Adding to this is Government regulation to stifle new business. Ever tried to start a business? The needless licenses, regulations and expenses assure that most will fail. We have a huge parasite (Government) who borrows its money from a banking cartel, and cannot stop its own growth. Like an old tree, with damaged branches, the US economy is rotting from the inside out. The trunk of that tree was the sturdy middle class. Once it is gone the US will be as well.
I disagree. The CNA did mean Certified Novell but really it means Certified Network Administrator- meanning you can do both Novell and Microsoft. I agree that you may get decent pay for doing such and for setting up domains, firewalls, subnets and NAT. But if you think that there are going to be millions of new high paying jobs in this business, I would say that you are wrong. And I would also tell you the same for telecom because I am even closer to that being in the cellular industry. The major telecom players are not hiring anybody and they are planting fiber everywhere replacing copper which is going to mean far fewer jobs in the future because fiber does not require 1/10th the maintenance of the copper plant. I work with these guys all the time because our sites are fed by T1s and they will tell you work is slow and overtime that used to be plentiful is almost impossible to come by anymore.
Ah I see your problem. You don't understand whatthe telecommunication industry entails nor lets say for example network administration entails. So you, with your limited understanding, thinks that since one thing is no longer plentiful thats it for that entire industry. Let me explain to you a few things. I worked with Lucent before I got into Network administration. I work for the Project Management team that over saw all the contractor collocation work through out North America (that includes Canada). Simply put, how this works is, lets say a company wants to start offering broadband, they would have to go into say a pactel or bellsouth and feed ofisf of their broadband infrustructor. This is called collocation. Once all the fiber is laid out (which was actually done in bulk from 2000 to like 2004) you then had test and turn up. Meaning making sure all lines are optimal, also increasing speeds, maintainence etc. Anyone who actually worked in the industry (not some small time person who worked for a contractor) knew that there would come a time there would be no more lines to lay down. However that is not the only thing that telecommunications covers. For example, the phone systems in office buildings, thats telecomm, 3g cellular phone network that is also telcomm. Managing systems like the old merlin legend phone system (thats old school). So yes grunt work like throwing down fiber is slowing down, i mean there is oh but so much fiber you can lay down before the job is pretty much done. However anyone who knowns anything about telecomm knows that is not the bulk of that field. As to your statements about networking, and your assessment of the field, there isnt a reason to really address it. There is more than enough info on the internet to prove you are incorrect. Anyone interested in the field should contact someone who actually WORKS in the field or just read the hundreds of articles out there assessing the current state of I.T.
From what I've seen others say about these I.T jobs being outsourced and coming back useless, just tells me the U.S. can still compete and beat most other countries in the latest technological innovations.[/quote]To explain the last part of what you said. I will give you the perspective of a person who was in the industry from before the .com bust days.
say from 2000 to 2002 the I.T. market became flooded with people who did those 6 mths MCSE courses (this is just the network admin side I am speaking of right now). You would go into office buildings and see a team of 10 people all of which had absolutely no work to do. Companies not understanding I.T. and what their needs truly were actually over hired and the quality of the people in the field was extremely poor. See, those MCSE courses are HORRIBLE for someone new to the field, they are meant for people working in the field currently. The amount of information you have to absorb is to much to be done in a six months time span. Anyway, these people flooded the market (just like the mortgage broker and real estate broker market was flooded with people). So with the year 2001 comes a horrible recession and companies finally started assessing their needs and realized they could do with far less people; so the lay offs began. Networking jobs were never outsourced, companies just cut back on staff and hiring. Now as more companies are starting to incorporate more technology in their day to day operations, their needs are growing. However the amount of people in the field fell dramatically since 2001, when the lays off came many people didn't return to the field. I know a CIO who was making six figures, he was laid off back in 2001 and he became a manager at a hardware store. Now some 6 yrs later he still hasn't returned to the field and says he wont. Also combine that with lower enrollment in C.S. programs and you get a worker shortage.
Now as for programmers, a lot of that was outsourced and it is now coming back. Not because we in America are so much better at it, but because the code being sent back from places like India is coming back screwed up. It is taking companies time just to sort through code and fix it. I know a senior programmer at the citrix headquarters down here and he was telling me they can not find enough qualified programmers in the states, so they are forced to outsource work, but the code is coming back screwed. There are a lot of articles on the net talking about this as well. The Miami Herald just did a pretty good piece on this subject a few months ago, if I can find it, I will post it here. Anyone going into this field now is in good shape, they just need to make sure they do internships while in school or it will be hard for them to get a job. Reason being is, a lot of these companies are under staffed and don't have the time to catch a programmer up to speed. Also as I said before, we tried to hire a database admin and couldn't find a qualified person. The only semi qualified person ended up turning us down for a better paying job. The pool of applicants is definitely smaller these days.
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