Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If I have to pay $36,000 a year for entry-level help, I am going to hire a whole new workforce. They will come in early, dress sharply, speak perfect English or whatever language my customers speak, make helpful suggestions for the profitable operation of my business, and not sue me when things don't go as planned. Such workers exist but they are expensive.
So no one currently making the minimum or near-minimum wage will be helped. They will be out of a job. Permanently, since every other employer would be facing the same picture I am. Talk about creating a permanent underclass...
They are expensive? But they aren't in your example.
For you guys talking about government benefits, using library computers, public transportation and roommates....
Take time to read the article and understand the premise.
The article is telling you what it takes for a single individual to be SELF SUFFICIENT. INDEPENDENT.
Not dependent on a roommate coming up with their half of the rent or water bill or making noise late at night or arguing what to watch on T.V.
Not dependent on the hours of public transportation and stuck if you need to get somewhere but the last bus for the day left the proverbial station. Or if you need to go see a parent or meet a friend but the public transit does not go there or you need to get to the hospital and have to find a ride.
Not dependent on the hours of the library and how many computers they have to use when you're waiting for an important e-mail or need to apply to a job during off hours or no computers available to use because they're already occupied.
Not dependent on the government to pay for your food, medical care or part of your housing with taxpayer dollars.
Etc...
The article is explaining to you what it takes for a healthy, grown adult to be SELF SUFFICIENT and live an INDEPENDENT lifestyle with no help or need to be taken care of or depend on others.
That doesn't include depending on the government to take care of your living expenses and sharing a bathroom with a stranger and counting on them for necessary expenses. Not to mention cleanliness, noisiness and having people over at hours you don't care for or who you'd rather not be around.
Remember: INDEPENDENT/SELF SUFFICIENT. The POINT of the article.
Fair point on medical insurance. Bump it up to $1,600/mo or about $9.25/hr. The rest is is just drivel though. They're either dependent on a job with a government mandated minimum wage or dependent on a guaranteed minimum income. Either way, they're not independent. No one really is. It's not the way the world generally works.
Fair point on medical insurance. Bump it up to $1,600/mo or about $9.25/hr. The rest is is just drivel though. They're either dependent on a job with a government mandated minimum wage or dependent on a guaranteed minimum income. Either way, they're not independent. No one really is. It's not the way the world generally works.
The world doesn't work the same way for everybody.
If I have to pay $36,000 a year for entry-level help, I am going to hire a whole new workforce. They will come in early, dress sharply, speak perfect English or whatever language my customers speak, make helpful suggestions for the profitable operation of my business, and not sue me when things don't go as planned. Such workers exist but they are expensive.
So no one currently making the minimum or near-minimum wage will be helped. They will be out of a job. Permanently, since every other employer would be facing the same picture I am. Talk about creating a permanent underclass...
If I have to pay $36,000 a year for entry-level help, I am going to hire a whole new workforce. They will come in early, dress sharply, speak perfect English or whatever language my customers speak, make helpful suggestions for the profitable operation of my business, and not sue me when things don't go as planned. Such workers exist but they are expensive.
So no one currently making the minimum or near-minimum wage will be helped. They will be out of a job. Permanently, since every other employer would be facing the same picture I am. Talk about creating a permanent underclass...
Paying workers less than they need to live on creates a permanent welfare class.
"The minimum wage was designed to create a minimum standard of living to protect the health and well-being of employees." -Cornell University Law School, Legal Information Institute
Wait a minute... There was something serious left out here. TAXES and SOCIAL SECURITY! I'm thinking that would take about $500 right off the top of a biweekly paycheck.
I think about this a lot since I moved from MN to NV. I have never seen so many work so hard for so little pay. It is wrong. No one working 40 or more hours a week should qualify for any welfare type benefits. Corporations need to pay enough that their workers do not qualify. Taxpayers should not have to make up the slack because wages are too low.
Next there are all the companies who employ only part time workers to avoid paying benefits. We need to get rid of this huge loophole employers use to take advantage of workers. If a part timer works 29 hours a week, that person should get a raise equivalent to @75% of the value of the benefit package offered to full time employees. We need to end the disparity in compensation between part time and full time employees. There would suddenly be a lot more full time work available and companies would only use part time workers as actually needed. And the part time worker with 2 jobs who puts in 40 hours a week would then be able to at least afford healthcare. And maybe defray a portion of their increased cost associated with having to work two jobs. In other words, all employees should carry the same loaded cost per hour.
This part time thing is a huge issue in Las Vegas where most of the jobs are low pay customer service type work. Full time jobs are hard to find. Many people work 2 or 3 jobs. They work 60+ hours per week, 7 days a week, with zero vacation or paid time off. Would this be OK with you? How long would you be willing to work this kind of schedule? How long should anyone have to do this? Don't forget, most of these people have families and responsibilities other than just work. And how do these people ever find the time to do something/anything that might eventually qualify them for a better job?
I know everyone talks about higher wages leading to inflation. But the cost of a Big Mac in countries with much higher minimum wages than the US is only a few cents more. Just for example, Sweden and Australia. I'm sure there are others.
It's easy to hark back to the time when minimum wage jobs were held by students and SAHM's working for pocket money. Times have changed and literally millions and millions of jobs that paid a middle class income are gone. POOF! And there was no place for all these workers to go but down the wage scale. They have become low wage workers. And it's even harder for them because they already had families to provide for and a middle class lifestyle. We now have too many low wage workers and there is no longer enough opportunity for these people to hope to move up the wage scale. And what about all the folks who were already in those low wage jobs before the working man's economy went south? They are now even lower on the scale and it looks pretty hopeless for them.
We need to start treating people fairly. The corporate economy is doing great. They need to share a little of the wealth. We need a dose of trickle up economics. Let's just use me as an example. When I lived in MN I was making $45 per hour plus full company paid benefits. My best job in NV has been part time, no benefits for $9 per hour. No, I didn't get stupid and I still have the same degrees. Here's perhaps the worst part. My boss who has been with that company for 20+ years and has a degree from Penn State...wait for it...makes $12 per hour. I'll say it again. We need to start treating people fairly. If there is no longer enough opportunity out there for people to move up then the jobs we have need to pay a living wage.
Last edited by yellowsnow; 12-04-2014 at 03:08 AM..
It's easy to harken back to the time when minimum wage jobs were held by students and SAHM's
working for pocket money. Times have changed and literally millions and millions of jobs
that paid a (lower/marginal enough to get by on) income are gone. POOF!
And there was no place for all these workers to go but down the wage scale.
They have become low wage workers.
You are describing social welfare issues... not wage rate issues.
Absent the direct competition faced by their own literal and figurative siblings...
those employers would have no choice but to pay them better. And train. And advance.
Yes, of course society will need to do **something** about this population.
But attempting to do it by means of MW increases won't help.
It won't help in the short term and it definitely won't help long term.
Quote:
If there is no longer enough opportunity out there for people to move up
then we have need to pay a living wage.
No. We really don't.
Adjusting the MW is at best a simplistic attempt at treating the worst symptom.
It doesn't do a single thing about the underlying problems.
---
Too many no/low skill warm bodies available for too few jobs that actually need doing.
Too many medium skill warm bodies available too... but we gotta start somewhere.
Find **someway** for these MILLIONS to be removed from the equation.
Their absence then allows the rest to DEMAND a better wage.
Heck, maybe even enough to pay some taxes too.
Then, and at least as importantly, stop regenerating their numbers.
Last edited by MrRational; 12-04-2014 at 07:40 AM..
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, 615' Elevation, Zone 8b - originally from SF Bay Area
44,576 posts, read 81,186,228 times
Reputation: 57813
Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowsnow
I'll say it again. We need to start treating people fairly. If there is no longer enough opportunity out there for people to move up then the jobs we have need to pay a living wage.
It's not fair to penalize the business owners who have stayed here and continue to provide jobs for the others that have moved the work to other countries, automated, or failed financially. Paying employees more is only fair if they are producing more and therefore worth more to the employer. If their pay is less than enough for them they need to either find a better job, or roommates to share their housing costs. Yes, they may even have to work more than one job. Many of us have done it for years while building the experience and skills to qualify for a better position.
Wait a minute... There was something serious left out here. TAXES and SOCIAL SECURITY! I'm thinking that would take about $500 right off the top of a biweekly paycheck.
It would be a little more than $6K/yr.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowsnow
I think about this a lot since I moved from MN to NV. I have never seen so many work so hard for so little pay. It is wrong. No one working 40 or more hours a week should qualify for any welfare type benefits. Corporations need to pay enough that their workers do not qualify. Taxpayers should not have to make up the slack because wages are too low.
Yet, it is perfectly acceptable to ask tax payers to pick up the slack because little Maria doesn't want to get an abortion or give up her kid for adoption. Am I right? As it stands, people don't qualify for welfare until they pop out a kid or two and have a low income. The kid part is the determining variable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowsnow
This part time thing is a huge issue in Las Vegas where most of the jobs are low pay customer service type work. Full time jobs are hard to find. Many people work 2 or 3 jobs. They work 60+ hours per week, 7 days a week, with zero vacation or paid time off. Would this be OK with you? How long would you be willing to work this kind of schedule? How long should anyone have to do this? Don't forget, most of these people have families and responsibilities other than just work. And how do these people ever find the time to do something/anything that might eventually qualify them for a better job?
That's a tough situation, but that's why people invest in their kid's education and people go to school. People in NV don't believe in education, so they get what they ask for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowsnow
I know everyone talks about higher wages leading to inflation. But the cost of a Big Mac in countries with much higher minimum wages than the US is only a few cents more. Just for example, Sweden and Australia. I'm sure there are others.
Try (nearly) double actually. Although, some studies indicate that doubling the MW will only lead to a 40% jump in prices, but will cost 500K+ jobs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowsnow
It's easy to hark back to the time when minimum wage jobs were held by students and SAHM's working for pocket money. Times have changed and literally millions and millions of jobs that paid a middle class income are gone. POOF! And there was no place for all these workers to go but down the wage scale. They have become low wage workers. And it's even harder for them because they already had families to provide for and a middle class lifestyle. We now have too many low wage workers and there is no longer enough opportunity for these people to hope to move up the wage scale. And what about all the folks who were already in those low wage jobs before the working man's economy went south? They are now even lower on the scale and it looks pretty hopeless for them.
We need to start treating people fairly. The corporate economy is doing great. They need to share a little of the wealth. We need a dose of trickle up economics. Let's just use me as an example. When I lived in MN I was making $45 per hour plus full company paid benefits. My best job in NV has been part time, no benefits for $9 per hour. No, I didn't get stupid and I still have the same degrees. Here's perhaps the worst part. My boss who has been with that company for 20+ years and has a degree from Penn State...wait for it...makes $12 per hour. I'll say it again. We need to start treating people fairly. If there is no longer enough opportunity out there for people to move up then the jobs we have need to pay a living wage.
And they will moan, complain, and breed instead of adapting to the market.
You moved from MN, which has a good education system, diversified economy, and low unemployment to NV which is and has always been the complete opposite.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
