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Old 12-06-2014, 11:12 AM
 
7,898 posts, read 7,086,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prosopis View Post
Businesses have one main function - to make a profit for the owners.
......
Lots of people seem to believe this. Lots of business owners and managers seem to think that everything they do is about profits. I disagree. If they make a management choice that favors profits at the expense of their product or workforce, the risk of failure goes way up. A good owner or manager looks for win-win-win choices. Those who do are much more likely to find long term success.
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Old 12-06-2014, 11:24 AM
 
9,805 posts, read 7,615,554 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by concept_fusion View Post
I disagree, respectfully.

There's definitely some social utility implied in every business charter in this century. Businesses that only exist to make money overstep every ethical and moral ground. They definitely exist, they are (mostly) legal, and they are not something which we should promote as a society.
Hmmm. Most entrepreneurs own small businesses that exist to make money to feed and clothe their own families. If they make more money, they provide more jobs to feed and clothe other families.

At what point do you believe they are overstepping every ethical and moral ground?

I truly believe that one of the most ethical and moral things a person can do is provide a job to another person so they can feed their family.
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Old 12-06-2014, 12:24 PM
 
459 posts, read 482,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaraG View Post
Hmmm. Most entrepreneurs own small businesses that exist to make money to feed and clothe their own families. If they make more money, they provide more jobs to feed and clothe other families.

At what point do you believe they are overstepping every ethical and moral ground?

I truly believe that one of the most ethical and moral things a person can do is provide a job to another person so they can feed their family.
Creating jobs that have minimal utility actually destroys social value. It means you are literally wasting that person's life, almost in a comical/dystopian manner, but not increasing happiness or measurable outcomes (life expectancy, infrastructure, health, access to resources, etc...). It's like saying that building a 9000 square foot house for a childless couple is good because of all the carpenters who are employed (and electricians, etc...).

Except it means that all the resources in the house, and all the labor of the carpenters and electricians, and the landspace, and the utilities which will power that house... are being wasted. The couple isn't using all the space, they aren't any happier, their conspicuous consumption creates no social value. Years of labor-hours wasted, hundreds of thousands of dollars in natural resources wasted, etc... For what? To perpetuate a meaningless cycle of self-worshipping capitalism?
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Old 12-06-2014, 12:33 PM
 
1,152 posts, read 1,272,708 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrkliny View Post
Lots of people seem to believe this. Lots of business owners and managers seem to think that everything they do is about profits. I disagree. If they make a management choice that favors profits at the expense of their product or workforce, the risk of failure goes way up. A good owner or manager looks for win-win-win choices. Those who do are much more likely to find long term success.
No, everything they do is not about profits. That is, however, the goal. How they reach that goal involves good management decisions, including sensible production and workforce decisions - as you say, screw all that up and the risk of failure goes up.

However, you make an error by assuming that the social utility of being an employer is one of the business's goals. It is a route to their goal, nothing more. That route can be smooth, or it can be horribly bumpy. The goal remains to make a profit, not to provide employment or a socially responsible product.

The wise entrepreneur tends to understand that keeping good employees and not pricing their products out of the market for larger short term gains is essential to their long term viability. That keeps their road as smooth as possible.

It's like putting oil and gas in the car engine - that gets you to the beach (your ultimate goal) but you do not take the trip in order to purchase oil and gas for the benefit of the gas station. Your support of the gas station or the diner where you have lunch is an effect of your wanting to take a trip to the beach, like employment and useful products for sale are effects of a business owner wanting to make a profit.
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Old 12-06-2014, 12:57 PM
 
7,898 posts, read 7,086,556 times
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P,
I understand your point. Businesses exist to make profits and good managers will pay attention to the quality of their products/services and to their employees. Unfortunately that is how so many, many bad management decisions are made. Good management accepts the idea of social responsibility regarding their products and social responsibility towards their employees. That ethical approach leads to good decisions which are in the long run good for profits. Bad decisions come from trying to compromise by ignoring ethical decisions in favor of quick profits. The business world is full of examples where even the mighty fall. Watch Walmart. They just don't get it. They have made unbelievable levels of profit and growth. They provide great products and services at low cost. Sure they have a few old stores in need of updating but in general they have succeeded really well in all areas except for one. They seem content to just get by with the minimum when it comes to their employees. I understand they provide mainly unskilled entry level jobs where turnover is high and wages and benefits can be low due to a surplus of cheap labor. I am sure their policies make perfectly good "business" sense. I am also sure they better change in a big hurry or they will pay a huge price for not accepting a reasonable level of social responsibility as a major employer.
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Old 12-06-2014, 01:59 PM
 
Location: Ak-Rowdy, OH
1,522 posts, read 2,992,545 times
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Per Wikipedia:

Entrepreneurship:
Entrepreneurship is the process of starting a business or other organization. The entrepreneur develops a business model, acquires the human and other required resources, and is fully responsible for its success or failure.


There is absolutely nothing in there about the social significance of the mission or anything else. It is simply starting and running a business. It could be someone in the business of drowning cats. They are still an entrepreneur.

You could layer on additional goals, much like trying to make the most fuel efficient vehicle, but that isn't the base definition of entrepreneurship.
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Old 12-06-2014, 02:12 PM
 
Location: Verde Valley
4,374 posts, read 11,196,893 times
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Anyone who is doing well as an entrepreneur is fulfilling a need in the market ~ or no one would be buying what they are selling.

Probably everyone in this thread has different ideas as to what's useful.
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Old 12-06-2014, 02:29 PM
 
1,152 posts, read 1,272,708 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrkliny View Post
P,
I understand your point. Businesses exist to make profits and good managers will pay attention to the quality of their products/services and to their employees. Unfortunately that is how so many, many bad management decisions are made. Good management accepts the idea of social responsibility regarding their products and social responsibility towards their employees. That ethical approach leads to good decisions which are in the long run good for profits. Bad decisions come from trying to compromise by ignoring ethical decisions in favor of quick profits. The business world is full of examples where even the mighty fall. Watch Walmart. They just don't get it. They have made unbelievable levels of profit and growth. They provide great products and services at low cost. Sure they have a few old stores in need of updating but in general they have succeeded really well in all areas except for one. They seem content to just get by with the minimum when it comes to their employees. I understand they provide mainly unskilled entry level jobs where turnover is high and wages and benefits can be low due to a surplus of cheap labor. I am sure their policies make perfectly good "business" sense. I am also sure they better change in a big hurry or they will pay a huge price for not accepting a reasonable level of social responsibility as a major employer.
You know something funny? When you describe management behavior as socially responsible I tend to argue. When you describe it as ethical, I tend to agree

To me the two have vastly different implications, I suspect that to you they are synonymous.

Funny about Walmart, I've seen Walmart employees defend them on CD, and I have known a couple of their employees who had no complaints beyond what we all complain about regarding our jobs. I'll grant you that this is a hopelessly small sample, not statistically meaningful at all, but then I never see much backing up your position either.

I suspect that most of the Walmart griping is based on 3rd party (union organizers or sympathizers) talk. I would lend it more credibility if I felt it were actual Walmart employees. I never see them protesting outside Walmart, or even hear about it. Usually any protests there or at fast food places are union people, sometime paid for their protesting time if the other news media is to be believed.

The Molly Maguires this isn't
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Old 12-06-2014, 03:25 PM
 
18,501 posts, read 15,487,453 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by concept_fusion View Post
It seems to me, a lot of entrepreneurship is concentrated in things which are:

Not terribly useful to society, but lucrative:
Examples:
-High Freq. Trading
-House Flipping
-Finance
-Apps / Software
-Advertising
-Questionable Health Industry Stuff

And yet those trying to solve "real" problems, don't get as much money from their businesses as those who are simply going after the money.

Meaning entrepreneurship isn't necessarily a game of being of the most utility to society, but a game of finding where to exploit easy profits from flawed mechanisms.

Am I wrong? I'm both a practitioner and theorist of the subject, and looking for insight.
The "business vs. charity" issue here. I don't think there is always an easy solution to this dilemma which has existed for THOUSANDS of years. I'll go so far as to say it is just a part of modern human civilization and even the ancient Greek philosophers knew of it.
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Old 12-06-2014, 05:07 PM
 
7,898 posts, read 7,086,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prosopis View Post
You know something funny? When you describe management behavior as socially responsible I tend to argue. When you describe it as ethical, I tend to agree

To me the two have vastly different implications, I suspect that to you they are synonymous.

........
You are correct. I am pretty sloppy in using terms such as ethical, moral and socially responsible. So perhaps I can try to explain my point. I think there is a world of difference between managers who care about their employees and managers who try to manipulate and calculate what they should do. Most employees can see and feel the difference. There is often a difference in the final result. It is a lot easier to discount employees if you really don't care that much about them. That is not to say that I believe every decision has to account for the wellbeing and wishes of the employees. Sometimes things need to be done that involve some disagreeable tasks or even hardships. Most employees will rise to the occasion if they believe management cares. It is pretty hard to fake caring.

Maybe I am wrong about Walmart. I suspect Walmart local management is inconsistent. Considering the number of incidents that keep making the news, I suspect Walmart needs to make some serious attempts to end discriminatory and illegal practices. Maybe instead of a secret shopper program, they need to institute a secret employee program. Anyway the last stunt requiring a dress code with specific items of clothing fell just short of requiring low paid employee to buy uniforms. That was done on a national basis at a time when there had been lots of other complaints and the issue of minimum wage is being discussed. At best the timing was poor.
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