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Old 01-10-2008, 09:01 AM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
31,418 posts, read 50,875,220 times
Reputation: 20314

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sskkc View Post
Of course it's Bush's fault. After all, he FORCED all those folks to buy bigger homes than they could afford by lying about their income, sign ARM mortgages and then take out the balloon equity to buy plasma TV's. There are people all over the country that blame him because they've been out of work for 6 years... his fault totally. I mean he wouldn't allow them to go to college after high school, then when they lost their job that was based on the millenium hype, he made them collect unemployment for 3 years and PREVENTED them from going to even looking for work or going to a trade school.

It's called personal responsibility. So few people today comprehend what it means, let alone practice it.

Did your daughter get knocked up at age 15? Is your GED not earning you six figures? Are you unable to afford your house payments now that the interest rate on your ARM changed? Does someone else have a nicer cell phone than you? Is your child failing math?

Don't do anything about it yourself... blame the government!
Well said
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Old 01-10-2008, 10:18 AM
 
419 posts, read 1,871,903 times
Reputation: 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
Well said
Good government needs on occasion to pass laws that protect people from themselves. That is why there are regulations and consumer protections. Bush and his government did not protect the naive borrowers from themselves and now we all suffer because of the ignorance and greed.
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Old 01-10-2008, 10:29 AM
 
45 posts, read 29,555 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by questioner2 View Post
Good government needs on occasion to pass laws that protect people from themselves.
That's how it all starts. Government's job is not to protect people from themselves. There already exists laws on fraud. They just need to be enforced and true frausters put in jail. Examples of fraud include Countrywide sending letters claiming people owed money when they in fact did not. ARMs exploding in people's faces are not unlawful and there should be no protection from that. Big difference between unethical and unlawful. The problem is education. No amount of government intervention will stop the upcoming realignment of asset values. In fact, rate freezes and freeze on foreclosures would likely make the problem even worse in the long run by accelerating credit contraction. Also, people who are upside down by 200K (many exist already and more to come) or more would make the wise decision to mail the keys back into the bank so as to write off the loss.

It's not like there were droves of mortgage officials who stormed into people's apartments and coerced them to sign mortgage documents.

As far as housing, the sheeple were driven to believe that funny money home equity was going to make them a millionaire overnight.
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Old 01-10-2008, 11:07 AM
 
Location: Minnysoda
9,109 posts, read 8,862,626 times
Reputation: 5514
Quote:
Originally Posted by questioner2 View Post
Good government needs on occasion to pass laws that protect people from themselves. That is why there are regulations and consumer protections. Bush and his government did not protect the naive borrowers from themselves and now we all suffer because of the ignorance and greed.
Protect the people from themselves Once again the Goverment is supposed to fight mother nature! The stupid just breed more stupid let them die off !we need to thin out the herd!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 01-10-2008, 04:22 PM
 
3,763 posts, read 10,940,352 times
Reputation: 6759
Bush's policies didn't help, but there's no proof anyone else would have done better. All we can do now is try to do better going forward.

Glad there's so many trickle down economists out there believe in the welfare queen of the Reagan years, too bad they were mythical figures then and are even more so now.
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Old 01-10-2008, 10:35 PM
 
Location: America
6,987 posts, read 15,712,404 times
Reputation: 2073
Quote:
Originally Posted by questioner2 View Post
If the economy is doing well, the President will usually take credit. If the economy is doing poorly (recession) the President will usually say it is the fault of the regular economic system (boom and bust)

I would like to believe that the 2008 Recession that many people feel started officially this month is the fault of the economic and governmental politics of President Bush and the Federal Reserve.

The recession is based on three things:

Energy: Bush did not push hard enough for an energy program and oil prices have risen 200% since 2001.

Mortgage and Housing crisis: Our government have not enforced consumer and credit laws and allowed all these crazy mortgages to be offered.

Credit Crisis: The Federal Reserve allowed interest rates to drop so low that credit became so cheap and easy fraud resulted. Treasury is dragging its feet working with credit markets and banks to solve the issue.
1. Oil prices are going to keep on rising because guess what? The stuff is not self renewing. As demand and the effort necessary to extract the stuff increases and the supply decreases, prices are naturally going to rise. People need to stop blaming presidents and the tooth fairy for this. People really need to start doing research on this whole energy thing.

2. The mortgage fiasco you can thank that fine fellow named Alan Greenspan for. he also single handedly lead the charge in the tech bubble and the one before it.

3. during the 2000 to 2003 recession, Bush could have done a lot more, as far as public works and other discretionary measures, which could put people back to work, but he didn't

4. I don't really see what he could have done to stop this down turn. We dumb Americans are much more to blame than he is. Again, people need to research. People want to champion capitalism but, want to lambaste everyone from the president to fed chair when things go wrong. Unfettered capitalism has a lot of inherent flaws and some of those include what we are seeing now. Look into the term laissez faire. That is basically free and unfettered business. That means people can come up with crazy @ss loans that will put millions at risk. It means that people can charge ridiculous prices for rent that far out strip peoples ability to pay. So, either people need to buy 100% into capitalism and stop crying and accept the good times and the bad, or people need to start getting behind alternatives.
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Old 01-10-2008, 10:40 PM
 
Location: southern california
57,466 posts, read 76,512,952 times
Reputation: 50635
energy, mortgage, credit------ war not a factor in the economy?
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Old 01-10-2008, 11:18 PM
 
636 posts, read 2,118,717 times
Reputation: 272
I am blown away that nobody has mentioned the fact that our dollar is becoming worthless because of our deficit because of Bush's and the neocon's war, or mentioned that Greenspan is also a neocon. Cut taxes, the deficit will pay itself off! Now lets vote in Ron Paul, cut taxes even more, and then pretend the deficit disappears. Bush is a moron, he got a C minus in economics in college, and he should NEVER have been president.
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Old 01-10-2008, 11:23 PM
 
45 posts, read 29,555 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Style View Post
1. Oil prices are going to keep on rising because guess what? The stuff is not self renewing. As demand and the effort necessary to extract the stuff increases and the supply decreases, prices are naturally going to rise. People need to stop blaming presidents and the tooth fairy for this. People really need to start doing research on this whole energy thing.

2. The mortgage fiasco you can thank that fine fellow named Alan Greenspan for. he also single handedly lead the charge in the tech bubble and the one before it.

3. during the 2000 to 2003 recession, Bush could have done a lot more, as far as public works and other discretionary measures, which could put people back to work, but he didn't

4. I don't really see what he could have done to stop this down turn. We dumb Americans are much more to blame than he is. Again, people need to research. People want to champion capitalism but, want to lambaste everyone from the president to fed chair when things go wrong. Unfettered capitalism has a lot of inherent flaws and some of those include what we are seeing now. Look into the term laissez faire. That is basically free and unfettered business. That means people can come up with crazy @ss loans that will put millions at risk. It means that people can charge ridiculous prices for rent that far out strip peoples ability to pay. So, either people need to buy 100% into capitalism and stop crying and accept the good times and the bad, or people need to start getting behind alternatives.
I disagree with the supply/demand theory. Since 1970, oil has only gone up 20% in terms of the price of gold, which is the perfect inflation detractor due to its scarcity and noise/speculation is irrelevant over a long span such as this. However, for every major currency, oil has gone up many fold (from about $3 to nearly $100). 20% over 38 years isn't really much of a demand crunch. I don't know if you are approaching this from an environmentalist/peak-oil bent, and while I do agree with the theory of peak oil theory somewhat, I think there is still too much supply for the demand factor to play in here.

I agree that Greenspan is MOSTLY responsible for this crisis, but Ben had an opportunity to nip this in the bud. Ben should've immediately raised rates further to contract the money supply. This brings a moderate recession, but the withdrawal symptoms are far less severe then what's been brewing just for us. The likely case is that the Fed is injecting enough "liquidity" to keep us afloat until the election. Unfortunately, it will come at the price of robbing responsible savers and pension holders nationwide. It's kind of like a twisted form of communism. Rob from the poor/middle class to give to the rich and indebted.

Nearly unfettered capitalism always works, perhaps with extremely minor regulations. It's a central bank (one of the tenants of the communist manifesto) that price fixes and ruins the idea of a free market. A dollar was worth the same in 1800 as it was in 1913, before the Fed screwed it up and made it worth 4 cents as of today. People are brainwashed into thinking that prices have to go up over the long term and it's just normal.

An easy lifestyle and immediate gratification has dulled Americans' minds and made them sheeple, and it's not a left/right thing. That's the real reason we're here today. So many people will suffer in the upcoming years and the consequence to crime (esp. with overcrowded prisons), civil unrest, and public health will be borderline catastrophic. Outside of creating unlivable conditions such as an absolute police state or an extreme implementation of a socialist/communist state, I don't see a good alternative.
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Old 01-11-2008, 06:30 AM
 
Location: America
6,987 posts, read 15,712,404 times
Reputation: 2073
Callahan

I disagree with the supply/demand theory. Since 1970, oil has only gone up 20% in terms of the price of gold, which is the perfect inflation detractor due to its scarcity and noise/speculation is irrelevant over a long span such as this. However, for every major currency, oil has gone up many fold (from about $3 to nearly $100). 20% over 38 years isn't really much of a demand crunch. I don't know if you are approaching this from an environmentalist/peak-oil bent, and while I do agree with the theory of peak oil theory somewhat, I think there is still too much supply for the demand factor to play in here.[/quote]You do realize that gas prices is heavily subsidized here in the states right? As far as a peak oil theory, its a theory when its not proven. DR. Hubbert was proven right in 1970 here in the states when our oil in certain areas dried up. This also happened in Azerbaijan and in a area in Columbia (until they were able to find other oil fields) so it is no longer a theory but a fact. Now unless your a geologist your assumptions are just that, assumptions. Some of the worlds top geologist have already said they think oil has peaked and or will be peaking and they give a very specific year using Hubberts proven formula. I won't say the year, I will just leave that to research. Again for anyone reading this, research is not hitting up wikipedia and coming back with a answer. It iwll take more than five minutes, it will take weeks and even months to get a clear picture. Not trying to be mean or rude so please don't take my words to heart, we are just exchanging thoughts here.

Quote:
I agree that Greenspan is MOSTLY responsible for this crisis, but Ben had an opportunity to nip this in the bud. Ben should've immediately raised rates further to contract the money supply. This brings a moderate recession, but the withdrawal symptoms are far less severe then what's been brewing just for us. The likely case is that the Fed is injecting enough "liquidity" to keep us afloat until the election. Unfortunately, it will come at the price of robbing responsible savers and pension holders nationwide. It's kind of like a twisted form of communism. Rob from the poor/middle class to give to the rich and indebted.
There is no "mostly" here. He (greenspan) cattle herded investors into these things, he is the catalyst. As for Bernanke, it is not as simple as you try to make it seem. If he would have raised interest rates a lot of banks would have folded and the housing situation would have accelerated, he tried to create a soft landing but in the end he is just prolonging the inevitable. I think he should just let whoever needs to bankrupt, go bankrupt. Screw it, this economy needs a good bleeding.

Quote:
Nearly unfettered capitalism always works, perhaps with extremely minor regulations. It's a central bank (one of the tenants of the communist manifesto) that price fixes and ruins the idea of a free market. A dollar was worth the same in 1800 as it was in 1913, before the Fed screwed it up and made it worth 4 cents as of today. People are brainwashed into thinking that prices have to go up over the long term and it's just normal.
Prices go up over the long term because of capitalism my friend. My degree (one of them) is in economics, I say do research and read from a variety of sources, or not.

Quote:
An easy lifestyle and immediate gratification has dulled Americans' minds and made them sheeple, and it's not a left/right thing. That's the real reason we're here today. So many people will suffer in the upcoming years and the consequence to crime (esp. with overcrowded prisons), civil unrest, and public health will be borderline catastrophic. Outside of creating unlivable conditions such as an absolute police state or an extreme implementation of a socialist/communist state, I don't see a good alternative.
There are alternatives, but again you have to research, really look into the issues man, again or not. Hope you respond, I like many of your ideas though.
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