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This has always been European history, a history of layers of conquests and reconquests. Each generation likes to think that they are the last conclusion, but really we are just living another chapter of the same historical patterns. We won't get out of it. The European Union was a great idea and it was good while it lasted. But nothing lasts forever. I think we in the west will have to gradually learn to cope with historical natural ups and downs.
That's throwing up your hands and saying "**** happens". We can do better than that.
Do know what's going on? None of this happened by accident.
No; its recognizing we make the same mistakes repeatedly and we only take our collective heads out of sand when bitten on butt. It happened in WWI and destroyed much of the world and cost lives of much of a generation of young men .The WWII which destroyed much of the world and ended with Europeans countries broke and US with much of the world's gold even with loan forgiveness. Its did end centuries of war tho between European powers. Into the 50's France and England held on to its suppressive colonial holding. Russia quickly move to establish their in eastern Europe. Saddam dreamed of being Hitler of the middle east. Not a lot has changed really.
Few things happen by accident. But they are inevitable. If it is, or if it isn't, what's the difference?
You can suppose it's inevitable that tech will make most human labor obsolete. But is it inevitable that oligarchs rule? That we become slaves with use to our masters?
You can suppose it's inevitable that tech will make most human labor obsolete. But is it inevitable that oligarchs rule? That we become slaves with use to our masters?
Oligarchs are terrible, but they may be inevitable. Eventually nearly every democracy is replaced by a dictatorship, and history recycles and cycles and so on and so forth. You don't have to support it to recognize its inevitability. Each Generation think that the worst is behind them and yet it isn't. Their view of the world stops at their time frame, and their understanding of the world is limited to their lifetime.
Give it enough time, every nation will evolve. Whatever great things we have today will eventually change. This is not it. History doesn't necessarily progress linearly. In most cases, it goes as it goes. It was rolled back hundreds of years several times at the collapse of an empire, for example.
Eventually nearly every democracy is replaced by a dictatorship, and history recycles and cycles and so on and so forth.
What are you thinking of? I'm not aware of any stable modern democracies turning into anything else. Democracy imposed on former autocratic societies tend to have a brief life, however. For obvious reasons.
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Give it enough time, every nation will evolve. Whatever great things we have today will eventually change. This is not it. History doesn't necessarily progress linearly. In most cases, it goes as it goes. It was rolled back hundreds of years several times at the collapse of an empire, for example.
Whatever you are talking about it doesn't seem to have anything to do with this thread. The rise and fall of empires is irrelevant. And I'm certainly not predicting that our future will be like today! Pretty much the opposite. I predict that 50 years from now our lives will be radically more altered than the present is compared to 50 years past.
The question is if we will blindly let "nature" take its course (which will not be a pleasant future for most of us), or will we be able to effect a different outcome?
What are you thinking of? I'm not aware of any stable modern democracies turning into anything else. Democracy imposed on former autocratic societies tend to have a brief life, however. For obvious reasons.
Whatever you are talking about it doesn't seem to have anything to do with this thread. The rise and fall of empires is irrelevant. And I'm certainly not predicting that our future will be like today! Pretty much the opposite. I predict that 50 years from now our lives will be radically more altered than the present is compared to 50 years past.
The question is if we will blindly let "nature" take its course (which will not be a pleasant future for most of us), or will we be able to effect a different outcome?
You are talking about modern democracies. But what is your timeframe? If you look at only the past 100 years and looking into the next 100 years, then your timeframe is quite short. Modern democracies, trust me, will evolve, and will even collapse if you allow enough time. Imposed democracies have a shorter life, but our constitutional democracy, "grassroots" as it seems, will outlive those imposed ones for a relatively longer time.
Letting nature take its course is actually our destiny. We have many examples of trying to change natures course, but success only exists if you subjectively limit your timeframe. Eventually, nature takes its course.
You are talking about modern democracies. But what is your timeframe? If you look at only the past 100 years and looking into the next 100 years, then your timeframe is quite short.
Since the 1700s. I'm not aware of any existing before that except for the brief experiment in Greece 2500 years ago. Democracy will soon end though because the reasons for it being so effective will soon disappear.
In this context "nature" is technological progress, and the rule and subjugation of the many by the few. It would be naive to believe the desire for this power will abate. And nearly as naive to think the many will be able to organize and enforce a better outcome. Not at this time anyway, when propaganda and surveillance have become so sophisticated.
Much of humanity as enjoyed a brief period when the oligarchs and masses had a symbiotic economic and social relationship. If we let nature take its course, freedom and human rights will be a thing of the past. But I'm not giving up hope just yet. There is a much better possibility, even though the odds are poor.
Last edited by rruff; 07-15-2015 at 06:54 PM..
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