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Better yet would be a time machine. Sure it isn't nearly as bad here as it is in most of the world. But it also isn't as good as it was.
I certainly am thankful that I live in decent and prosperous country. What I'm concerned about is its trajectory towards greater income and wealth disparity, less privacy and freedom, greater consolidation of power, etc. It does not bode well for democracy, and the future of the US or the world.
Yeah this is true. These are all important and serious issues.
Lot's of talk about those that work at fast food jobs and struggling on min wage, but then there are those that went to college and still are barely really making ends meet.
I think with the last crash in the economy there has certainly been an eye opener...but I have a feeling that now that the word recession is out of the headlines , people will live under the false belief that everything is ok.
Credit has become easier again it seems and home values have been going up, so that gives many a false sense of prosperity.
Many people don't realize there are serious issues until it's too late...and by that time things haven't been going well for a while.
One huge flaw in our education system is that it doesn't prepare people to become wealthy .
People are realizing that too often the , "Go to school, get good grades, get a good job" path/road doesn't usually lead to wealth.
Corporations are cutting benefits and pensions and the public sector/government has too.
At the same time , high education is at all time highs and 'middle class wages' have been stagnant. Not a good combination.
Most people seem to not have a clue about investing , and simply leaving it in the hands of those 'trained financial professionals' isn't that safe a bet either.
People have their retirement invested in assets they don't even understand. It's crazy.
I think if you want to be wealth it's important to study what the wealthy have done or what wealthy people are doing today. I can't think of anyone that doesn't want to be wealthy if they are really being honest with themselves.
I don't understand the mentality of wishing to remain poor. Being poor or in poverty is not a life sentence, and it especially shouldn't be a self imposed one.
Having fewer or no children is not the total solution.
Correct; it isn't. Too many get distracted by the raw number nonsense.
ftr: I'd be OK with stabilizing the raw number and very happy if it was reduced.
The US doesn't need (or have use for) the number we currently need to feed.
The concern is the number that are net consumers of public services and wealth...
which is about their ability (or lack of) to earn enough to be self sufficient.
Creating more of these people doesn't serve anyone.
Last edited by MrRational; 04-07-2015 at 02:26 PM..
Reason: eta stabilize/reduce comment
Correct; it isn't. Too many get distracted by the raw number nonsense.
The concern is the number that are net consumers of public services and wealth...
which is about their ability (or lack of) to earn enough to be self sufficient.
Creating more of these people doesn't serve anyone.
I hope that more people take the advice of the Pope on responsible parenting.
Yeah this is true. These are all important and serious issues.
Lot's of talk about those that work at fast food jobs and struggling on min wage, but then there are those that went to college and still are barely really making ends meet.
I think with the last crash in the economy there has certainly been an eye opener...but I have a feeling that now that the word recession is out of the headlines , people will live under the false belief that everything is ok.
Credit has become easier again it seems and home values have been going up, so that gives many a false sense of prosperity.
Many people don't realize there are serious issues until it's too late...and by that time things haven't been going well for a while.
One huge flaw in our education system is that it doesn't prepare people to become wealthy .
People are realizing that too often the , "Go to school, get good grades, get a good job" path/road doesn't usually lead to wealth.
Corporations are cutting benefits and pensions and the public sector/government has too.
At the same time , high education is at all time highs and 'middle class wages' have been stagnant. Not a good combination.
Most people seem to not have a clue about investing , and simply leaving it in the hands of those 'trained financial professionals' isn't that safe a bet either.
People have their retirement invested in assets they don't even understand. It's crazy.
I think if you want to be wealth it's important to study what the wealthy have done or what wealthy people are doing today. I can't think of anyone that doesn't want to be wealthy if they are really being honest with themselves.
I don't understand the mentality of wishing to remain poor. Being poor or in poverty is not a life sentence, and it especially shouldn't be a self imposed one.
Not everyone can be wealthy. Obviously there have to be people at the low end unless you want communism.
Not everyone even wants to be wealthy. In Europe they seemed to have a more sustainable philosophy on this - they would gladly give up 300sf of living space if it meant they could hang out for 2 hours at the cafe every day instead of a harried 30 minute lunch.
Europe also handles edcuation better - not everyone has to go to college. We feel compelled to go here in the U.S. In Europe they have fewer colleges because if you want to continue in academics you have to be strong in academics to be accepted. If you weren't, no college for you, period. If you weren't strong in a subject that justifies your continuing it in college, your 2nd half of high school is trade school. It's kind of against the American ethos that anyone can do whatever they want to do, though, so I don't think that would fly here.
It doesn't create a perfect system because they have unemployment, poor people and an immigrant underclass too, but they seem to be more subtle and muted problems than what we have.
The problem is, it *is* unpleasant. And the teachers often *are* failures. Make learning interesting, and kids will want to learn. Education is a mess in this country below college level.
The funny thing in Europe they don't even have a financial reason to do well in school because it is so egalitarian. It's for fun, personal enrichment, or prestige.
It's a mess in college too.
A big change that would help is to shift our teacher training to the way they do it - to become a teacher is a rigorous process requiring high grades, passage of content-specific exams, rigorous evaluation procedures. It's not that much easier than becoming a doctor or lawyer.
Trying to implement that here would cause short to medium term teacher shortages that would be quite severe, there's not the political support for that.
So how did you pay for that? I cleaned restrooms and delivered pizzas.
I worked at Burger King. I cashiered in a gas station/convenience store. I cashiered in a car wash. I cashiered in a fruit stand. I cleaned for a janitorial company late at night.
Looking back, I should have waitressed and worn low-cut shirts. I'm sure I could have afforded to work fewer hours if I had done that. So dumb.
I don't agree that having kids is unaffordable to everyone, but even if I were to grant such a ludicrous assumption, you cannot make up for declining birth rate via immigration. All you are doing is shifting the burden from one country to others, not eliminating it. Immigration does not create new human beings, it merely redistributes.
Are you saying you think the other nations have some "secret" way of affording to have more kids that we have no access to?
I never said it was unaffordable to everyone, but for a large chunk of our population it is given how our childcare situation is. The richer segment of our society will probably only average 2 children an adult at most. The poor would probably be better off forgoing kids or waiting till later in life to have them. Either that or we could have a Euro-style government subsidized childcare/healthcare situation to make life easier for working parents. But in the USA our taxes are good at vanishing into corrupt political payouts, and this combined with endless party filibusters makes me think we're incapable of such a thing.
Population decline can be countered with immigration. Remove the sketchy H1-B visa rules that essentially force 3rd world visa holders to be underpaid slaves to the corporation they work for constantly under the threat of immigration. If the USA should ever find itself in true population decline it should instead allow sensible immigration of people with general skills into the country and let them work at the going rate (rather than as an indentured servant unable to change companies or ask for a raise). This will suppress wages less and be less likely to serve as an impetus for xenophobia from the existing populace.
Globally there are many areas of the world plagued by famine and suffering due to disease and violence due to extremely limited resources (India, Africa etc). A global population decline would be a good thing. Do you realize how much worse off China would be if the average woman still had 5 children instead of the current 2? China is a microcosm of the world, and it's arguable that humans as a species are already over their carrying capacity of the environment in many areas. Consequently, a brain drain out of poor areas to more developed regions and moving people from overcrowded areas to less crowded ones would not be a bad thing. This combined with globalized contraceptives could really help humans become a far more sustainable species.
Not everyone can be wealthy. Obviously there have to be people at the low end unless you want communism.
Not everyone even wants to be wealthy. In Europe they seemed to have a more sustainable philosophy on this - they would gladly give up 300sf of living space if it meant they could hang out for 2 hours at the cafe every day instead of a harried 30 minute lunch.
Europe also handles edcuation better - not everyone has to go to college. We feel compelled to go here in the U.S. In Europe they have fewer colleges because if you want to continue in academics you have to be strong in academics to be accepted. If you weren't, no college for you, period. If you weren't strong in a subject that justifies your continuing it in college, your 2nd half of high school is trade school. It's kind of against the American ethos that anyone can do whatever they want to do, though, so I don't think that would fly here.
It doesn't create a perfect system because they have unemployment, poor people and an immigrant underclass too, but they seem to be more subtle and muted problems than what we have.
Europe definitely has a different philosophy. I think time is a super valuable and underappreciated asset in the US.
Europeans seem to have an entirely different view of time; leisure time, vacation time, work time,etc. There seems to be more people in Europe that get the concept of time having a value.
Look at a country like Germany, the average person seems to live quite well, their economy is the best in Europe, but their workers still get a ton more vacation time than Americans.
In America employers aren't legally required to give any paid vacation days.
Regarding living space, I'm not sure how many would give up a larger living space for more time.
There is an idea that people work more hours in order to maintain a larger house or more expensive lifestyle, but I don't think this is necessarily true.
Look at NYC , almost everyone lives in tiny spaces there even if they make decent money.
The richest people actually are ironically the ones that have the option to work the least hours. You can only work so many hours, you can only trade so much time for money.
You can potentially make almost unlimited money , but nobody can create more than 24 hours in a day.
Good point about college too. It's not for everyone, everyone should have a shot at it..but at this point it seems a huge amount of money and effort is spent on "making sure every child has a college education'.
There are actually quite a few figures out there that are starting to speak out about college and formal education.
Just because you don't have a degree doesn't mean you aren't education . There are many amazing ways for people to self educate these days. This is not to say I don't see the value in higher ed , as I have a Masters and worked at a university for many years. It's just that I realize it's not for everyone.
There is a big push now to get students to study STEM , Science ,Technology Engineer and Math.
The problem is that not everyone is interested in this and some are studying it because of the promise of free or cheaper college and will eventually drop out.
I'd rather bring over people from other countries that are amazing in these fields than spend a bunch of money trying to get American kids interested in it if so many end up dropping out.
The dropout rates in colleges is ridiculously high.
How many millions (or billions) is spent trying to attract and give scholarship and grants to students that shouldn't be in these programs in the first place.
I never said it was unaffordable to everyone, but for a large chunk of our population it is given how our childcare situation is. The richer segment of our society will probably only average 2 children an adult at most. The poor would probably be better off forgoing kids or waiting till later in life to have them. Either that or we could have a Euro-style government subsidized childcare/healthcare situation to make life easier for working parents. But in the USA our taxes are good at vanishing into corrupt political payouts, and this combined with endless party filibusters makes me think we're incapable of such a thing.
Population decline can be countered with immigration.
No. This just moves the population decline from one nation to another, it does not "counter" it. Now the other nation(s) have the same problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by njbiodude
Remove the sketchy H1-B visa rules that essentially force 3rd world visa holders to be underpaid slaves to the corporation they work for constantly under the threat of immigration. If the USA should ever find itself in true population decline it should instead allow sensible immigration of people with general skills into the country and let them work at the going rate (rather than as an indentured servant unable to change companies or ask for a raise). This will suppress wages less and be less likely to serve as an impetus for xenophobia from the existing populace.
Globally there are many areas of the world plagued by famine and suffering due to disease and violence due to extremely limited resources (India, Africa etc). A global population decline would be a good thing. Do you realize how much worse off China would be if the average woman still had 5 children instead of the current 2? China is a microcosm of the world, and it's arguable that humans as a species are already over their carrying capacity of the environment in many areas. Consequently, a brain drain out of poor areas to more developed regions and moving people from overcrowded areas to less crowded ones would not be a bad thing. This combined with globalized contraceptives could really help humans become a far more sustainable species.
Europe definitely has a different philosophy. I think time is a super valuable and underappreciated asset in the US.
Europeans seem to have an entirely different view of time; leisure time, vacation time, work time,etc. There seems to be more people in Europe that get the concept of time having a value.
Look at a country like Germany, the average person seems to live quite well, their economy is the best in Europe, but their workers still get a ton more vacation time than Americans.
In America employers aren't legally required to give any paid vacation days.
Regarding living space, I'm not sure how many would give up a larger living space for more time.
There is an idea that people work more hours in order to maintain a larger house or more expensive lifestyle, but I don't think this is necessarily true.
Look at NYC , almost everyone lives in tiny spaces there even if they make decent money.
The richest people actually are ironically the ones that have the option to work the least hours. You can only work so many hours, you can only trade so much time for money.
You can potentially make almost unlimited money , but nobody can create more than 24 hours in a day.
Good point about college too. It's not for everyone, everyone should have a shot at it..but at this point it seems a huge amount of money and effort is spent on "making sure every child has a college education'.
There are actually quite a few figures out there that are starting to speak out about college and formal education.
Just because you don't have a degree doesn't mean you aren't education . There are many amazing ways for people to self educate these days. This is not to say I don't see the value in higher ed , as I have a Masters and worked at a university for many years. It's just that I realize it's not for everyone.
There is a big push now to get students to study STEM , Science ,Technology Engineer and Math.
The problem is that not everyone is interested in this and some are studying it because of the promise of free or cheaper college and will eventually drop out.
I'd rather bring over people from other countries that are amazing in these fields than spend a bunch of money trying to get American kids interested in it if so many end up dropping out.
The dropout rates in colleges is ridiculously high.
How many millions (or billions) is spent trying to attract and give scholarship and grants to students that shouldn't be in these programs in the first place.
The STEM push is somewhat out of line with the job market, at least in some sub-fields. With the effects of sequestration and other cuts the academic and laboratory job market for research scientists is horrifically competitive right now and scientists are forced to waste a huge amount of time trying to get grant funding for their labs.
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