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Old 03-21-2015, 06:50 PM
 
Location: Ruidoso, NM
5,667 posts, read 6,560,237 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ContrarianEcon View Post
That is why we need to increase wages over there, so they don't come here.
We can't even influence policy in our own country, how will you get other countries to agree to what you want?
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Old 03-21-2015, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
29,691 posts, read 24,748,209 times
Reputation: 28375
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiknapster View Post
I think it's important to be realistic. Life happens and not everyone is living the "dream." Not everyone is a doctor, a lawyer or even have a college degree. Some of us females over 50 were expected to marry well, not continue with an education. Not everyone can even hope to work as a secretary (a dying profession), married to a guy that worked at Walmart for 20 years, and making $40,000 to $50,000, combined. Spouses die. Or run away.

Try being a woman in her 50s with a 14-year-old. Getting a job, let alone making $12 an hour, isn't easy. In the past year, I've been out of work 8 months. In the US, people walk past a woman my age, never even noticing her. And in my profession - sales - that's the death knell.

Oh, and good luck finding a partner for the same darned reason.

**************************

And by all means, keep using the red herring. Debate the meaning of "class" rather than acknowledge that Corporate America has been killing the middle class for 45 years, while our elected officials throw up their own red herrings while lining their pockets.
Not everyone is middle class. Middle class doesn't even have to exist. I certainly wasn't suggesting the middle class is in better shape now than 10-15 years ago financially. There are more frills to modern living, and new age gadgets are cheaper. Corporate America helped make that possible, but it was never their responsibility to protect or serve the middle class. That's more like out government's responsibility.

To say the least, our nation's policies have been disastrous for the average U.S. worker. LOL at tax breaks for the wealthy, with the intent of enticing them to create jobs... Cause that's really how it works.
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Old 03-21-2015, 07:36 PM
 
48,505 posts, read 96,623,272 times
Reputation: 18304
Middle class by say 1950's standards is much in today world. Of course in a recession you expect the workers to suffer most of income loss; certainly not those dependent. you expert most dependents to gain in numbers. In the 8 years leading up to the recession were perhaps some of the best in total satisfaction of workers.Any who are highly subsidized in ACA just got a huge raise when you figure the average employer in 2012 spent on AVERAGE 13K plus per employee for their healthcare contribution. the only difference is Government decide where the raise would be spent and who got it. More and ore we will like Europe is government at least trying to be the middleman to workers below a level. It as time goes on assures you voting by what you are dependent on.Greece became a contest as to which candidate offered the most government jobs; because they paid more and where guaranteed life time jobs or so they thought.
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Old 03-21-2015, 08:42 PM
 
Location: Ruidoso, NM
5,667 posts, read 6,560,237 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
Corporate America helped make that possible, but it was never their responsibility to protect or serve the middle class. That's more like out government's responsibility.
Until globalization it was in their interest to serve the middle class. Consumer capitalism dictates that the rich can't get richer for long unless consumers do as well.

And now we find out what has probably been true all along. That our government that is supposed to look out for the "common good" is easily co-opted by $$$.
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Old 03-21-2015, 09:03 PM
 
12,022 posts, read 11,509,043 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rruff View Post
Nope. Women.




Note the two bottom lines. Much fewer teenagers working, and many more seniors.
The teens normally don't count towards median household income.

Neither really help because the older people are getting lower paid jobs when they find work, even lower paying than the teenagers.

Older Workers: BLS Spotlight on Statistics

On top of that, the median income for households headed by peak earnings cohort of age 45-54 has been dropping, down 15.8% since 2007.
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Old 03-21-2015, 09:11 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
29,691 posts, read 24,748,209 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rruff View Post
Until globalization it was in their interest to serve the middle class. Consumer capitalism dictates that the rich can't get richer for long unless consumers do as well.

And now we find out what has probably been true all along. That our government that is supposed to look out for the "common good" is easily co-opted by $$$.
Corporations serve the customer 1st. Since it was the middle class purchasing many of their products 60 years ago, of course they cared. And they still care about the middle class today, at least, what's left of us/them/whomever. Matter of fact, they care about anyone holding the buck.

But this is 2015. The government can make consumers out of anyone, no matter what class. Sure, many poor people whine about Walmart's low wages. But when that EBT transfer is complete, where do you suppose a great many of them do their shopping?

The American public is collectively weak, docile and can't operate without enriching those corporations. And look at the idiots that people elect. Future generations are going to wonder what was wrong with us.
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Old 03-21-2015, 11:22 PM
 
31,708 posts, read 26,631,805 times
Reputation: 24542
Each of these "middle class is dying in America" reports/threads comes down to the same very sad statistics: the quantity and quality of jobs that support such a lifestyle/demographic continue to decrease and or vanish.

The great burst of the middle class in the United States really came about via several factors that came together starting probably just before WWII and continued almost through the 1970's.

First was the expansion of labor unions. Next came the GI Bill which sent hundreds to college that otherwise never would have gone. Finally the US economy still was manufacturing/trade based enough that a there was enough employment or self-employment that paid enough to put a family in the middle-class.

The United States has been through about three or more recessions since the 1980's. After each such event labor participation rates are never what they were before, and this time that is true in spades.

The American labor market is moving into two very distinct sectors; highly skilled/educated (better to higher wages) and low skill/service (low wages).

Thanks to technology including the spread and growth of computers companies and businesses are able to reach the same or greater productivity with fewer and fewer employees. Those that do have positions often find themselves doing far more than someone say in a similar position a decade ago.

Years ago walking though a corporate HQ or any office really and you found scores of secretaries, typists, telephone operators, archivists, actuaries, copy machine operators, and so forth. Today most of those jobs are gone or no longer exist in past form.

The biggest hit comes from the loss of US manufacturing base. Post war all those factories churning out everything from automobiles to washing machines not only provided those employed by that particular company with work, but places that provided support (everything from parts to raw materials and supplies) kept gave many more employment as well.

Look at healthcare the industry everyone keep harping on about being a bright spot in the US economy. If you look closely at the numbers hired numbers of techs, assistants and other lower paid workers out numbers the higher compensated doctors and nurses.

Even the USPS, once seen as the ticket to a middle class lifestyle is laying off workers due to technology.
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Old 03-22-2015, 05:46 AM
 
Location: Bronx
16,200 posts, read 22,969,458 times
Reputation: 8344
Quote:
Originally Posted by BugsyPal View Post
Each of these "middle class is dying in America" reports/threads comes down to the same very sad statistics: the quantity and quality of jobs that support such a lifestyle/demographic continue to decrease and or vanish.

The great burst of the middle class in the United States really came about via several factors that came together starting probably just before WWII and continued almost through the 1970's.

First was the expansion of labor unions. Next came the GI Bill which sent hundreds to college that otherwise never would have gone. Finally the US economy still was manufacturing/trade based enough that a there was enough employment or self-employment that paid enough to put a family in the middle-class.

The United States has been through about three or more recessions since the 1980's. After each such event labor participation rates are never what they were before, and this time that is true in spades.

The American labor market is moving into two very distinct sectors; highly skilled/educated (better to higher wages) and low skill/service (low wages).

Thanks to technology including the spread and growth of computers companies and businesses are able to reach the same or greater productivity with fewer and fewer employees. Those that do have positions often find themselves doing far more than someone say in a similar position a decade ago.

Years ago walking though a corporate HQ or any office really and you found scores of secretaries, typists, telephone operators, archivists, actuaries, copy machine operators, and so forth. Today most of those jobs are gone or no longer exist in past form.

The biggest hit comes from the loss of US manufacturing base. Post war all those factories churning out everything from automobiles to washing machines not only provided those employed by that particular company with work, but places that provided support (everything from parts to raw materials and supplies) kept gave many more employment as well.

Look at healthcare the industry everyone keep harping on about being a bright spot in the US economy. If you look closely at the numbers hired numbers of techs, assistants and other lower paid workers out numbers the higher compensated doctors and nurses.

Even the USPS, once seen as the ticket to a middle class lifestyle is laying off workers due to technology.
I agree with this.
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Old 03-22-2015, 07:28 AM
 
20,955 posts, read 8,607,689 times
Reputation: 14050
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
In 2010, the US had the largest middle class in the world. Blame every law that's been passed since then for its demise.
Wow, that's a strange cherry picked statistic!

By most every measurement, the decline started in the late 70's - and so-called "Reagonomics" is largely responsible. Not to say a particular Prez could really change the big picture (globalization) - but on the other hand "let em eat cake" is not a good national policy either.

We were the biggest creditor nation and the biggest exporter in the 70's - now we are the biggest debtor and the biggest IMPORTER. That didn't happen since 2010. In fact, being a student of history and economics myself, 2010 represented perhaps the lowest end of the Great Depression II - which also sucked wealth from the middle class and poor.

It seems Americans cheer great wealth and look down upon those who don't have it as being lesser people. That's why we have one dollar=one vote instead of one person=one vote. (Kochs, etc.).

Think about it. The #1 cause of bankruptcy before 2011 was/is MEDICAL CARE. We are the only civilized country in the world without universal medicare care at reasonable prices. It's breaking the bank - poor and lower middle class folks are one sickness away from losing everything...

That's just one part. Our education system is terrible for all except those lucky enough (by birth, location, resources, etc.) to be in the top.

The reason we have these problems is pretty simple - people accept it and often even cheer it. Americans are often "me first and always" as opposed to understanding that civilization is a "commonwealth" of resources and people.

I'm lucky in that I won the birth lottery...and maybe some of the DNA one too! But that doesn't stop me from seeing the problems and/or solutions. Doing better does not cost more - it's more a matter of putting resources into the proper places. We spend trillions on wars for oil and for status...while letting much of our home population flounder.
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Old 03-22-2015, 07:35 AM
 
20,955 posts, read 8,607,689 times
Reputation: 14050
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
The American public is collectively weak, docile and can't operate without enriching those corporations. And look at the idiots that people elect. Future generations are going to wonder what was wrong with us.
I agree with this....expressed in my post above. Most people seem to be told what to think by their choice of media. As an example, they often don't believe our great country has the resources to provide basic low-cost medical care to our citizens...and they will actively fight and vote against it! This despite the fact that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure (that is, pay now or pay later)....so we get broke by paying later.

Same with wars. I was one of the very few that knew what was going to happen in Iraq and Afghanistan - a waste of trillions. Worse than a waste - we make things worse! Yet 90% of the population cheered and gladly spent their money and that of future generations. Even after those lessons we have people today fighting for larger war budgets - as if it's going to work next time! Listen - if we can't protect this country for 1/2 a trillion, then 3/4 of a trillion or 1 trillion (what we now spend per year) isn't going to make the difference.

Drugs, drinking, violence (domestic and external) are all indications of a populace which cannot adjust to the realities of life.

On the other hand I don't want to sound too negative! On a personal level we have perhaps the most freedoms and benefits in the history of mankind. The apples are there for the pickins....but we tend to make sour mash from them instead of sweet cider. It's not hopeless...except in the fact that many give up before they even start.
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