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That's OK. It's all water under the bridge now anyway.
But to be sure we're STARTING from the same point, I'll reiterate my points.
The first (and most subsequent) off-shoring was rooted in three basic factors:
1) EPA issues 2) OSHA issues 3) Labor/wage issues
Sometimes all three were at play.
To re-establish any of these operations there would be no choice BUT to do that.
America is a first world nation. We can't have half the population living in third world slums while the other half reap the reward. You would have pitchforks and broomstick style revolting long before.
There are still profitable operations using old technology. They found a niche that they can effectively compete in. Kinda like old school printing presses. After years of consolidation, supply and demand leveled off. The old equipment is perfect for the small orders that larger companies no longer mess with. Small entrepreneurs depend on small operations like this to develop and grow. Without small operations like that, entrepreneurship and small business growth is crippled. We need organic growth in America, which actually benefits small businesses as well.
I think we do need to make some changes in how manufacturing is regulated in this country. So many accidents are due to operator error, and no fault to the manufacturer. That is not fair at all, and does make it more expensive to quote work in the United States. If you can't place a competitive bid, the work goes to someone else, where every they may operate. Many of the laws and regulations were written to turn manufacturers into another revenue source, and nothing more. Well, they killed that cash cow long ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldtrader
All we see here is offshoring is terrible.
Offshoring is great for many people. I am a manufacturer of goods. I use screws and washers all the time, which are made in India and China. That helps me become more competitive.
What hurts America is intellectual theft. What good is a patent if you can no longer enforce it? That's what the video was all about. Not the merit or profitability of offshoring.
When they saw the diminishing returns from NOT offshoring (c 1970's forward)...
the chose to abandon old unclean and unsafe plants and to abandon labor agreements.
Even if these companies were re-shore production capacity to meet US needs...
and by that to offer employment to more US citizens the benefits would be modest at best.
Wages in MODERN plants would be low for 98% of floor workers. Doubtfully more than minimum
wage for most... then only 10% more for the rest because the still underlying problem of the
labor surplus, far in excess of need, would persist and persist in depressing wages.
While I generally agree with your basic points, I am dismayed that the grand picture is not addressed, maybe not even seen.
1) something wrong with maintaining and improving and building new facilities? I liken your justification of the behaviour as something akin to my son who after trashing his room decides, rather than clean it, to attempt to appropriate another room for his own use.
2) So in your world of repatriated jobs, where does the compensation of the higher ups enter into the picture. For example, I have heard it said that the amortized cost of manufacturing and shipping an iPhone is now $200. The monopoly price cost to the consumer is app 650%, meaning a gross profit of 350%. (correct my math if I am wrong. Has been known to happen) This opposed to manufacturing in the US at a cost of $350 for a GP of 95% (again, correct me if I am wrong. I'm used to gp's in the 50% range. The numbers I am seeing with regards to Apple is nothing short of amazing)
So why is the American worker taking the entire hit? Why do the upper crust get ever increasing compensation and bonuses while the American worker's wages continue to fall. BTW I do not accept the old "well they take all the risk" nonsense. The compensation structure of 150 years ago was not so bifurcated and the upper crust made plenty of money.
So why is the American worker taking the entire hit? Why do the upper crust get ever increasing compensation and bonuses while the american worker's wages continue to fall. BTW I do not accept the old "well they take all the risk" nonsense. he compensation structure of 150 years ago was not so bifurcated and the upper crust made plenty of money.
Because the American worker can no longer earn the money (by working) to afford the means to compete. That means, the worker has no choice but to go to work... For whatever wage is offered. Also, Americans are being trained/taught to seek jobs, not create them. The rest just demand a handout, in one form or another. Systemic problems that most people ignore, or are unaware of.
America is a first world nation. We can't have half the population living in third world slums while the other half reap the reward. You would have pitchforks and broomstick style revolting long before.
There are still profitable operations using old technology. They found a niche that they can effectively compete in. Kinda like old school printing presses. After years of consolidation, supply and demand leveled off. The old equipment is perfect for the small orders that larger companies no longer mess with. Small entrepreneurs depend on small operations like this to develop and grow. Without small operations like that, entrepreneurship and small business growth is crippled. We need organic growth in America, which actually benefits small businesses as well.
I think we do need to make some changes in how manufacturing is regulated in this country. So many accidents are due to operator error, and no fault to the manufacturer. That is not fair at all, and does make it more expensive to quote work in the United States. If you can't place a competitive bid, the work goes to someone else, where every they may operate. Many of the laws and regulations were written to turn manufacturers into another revenue source, and nothing more. Well, they killed that cash cow long ago.
Offshoring is great for many people. I am a manufacturer of goods. I use screws and washers all the time, which are made in India and China. That helps me become more competitive.
What hurts America is intellectual theft. What good is a patent if you can no longer enforce it? That's what the video was all about. Not the merit or profitability of offshoring.
I like your take on this.
Part of the equation is the effect on the many. Maybe you are better off, but what about all those displaced workers who are now on welfare? Is the ever growing number of such people good for this country?
1) something wrong with maintaining and improving and building new facilities?
Nope. Not a thing.
It was a choice though and at least partially influenced by foreign policy goals.
Quote:
2) So in your world of repatriated jobs,
where does the compensation of the higher ups enter into the picture.
My world of what?
I see no place in the world for repatriated jobs to the US.
Quote:
So why is the American worker taking the entire hit?
Because their parents didn't spend enough on Latex.
I could dress it up more... but that's what it comes down to.
My great-grandfather was one of 10 children.
My grandfather was one of 10 children.
He and my grandmother had 2 children; their siblings produced ten altogether.
These ten children (my fathers cousins) all did rather well in life.
In the course of that these ten cousins produced eight children total...
and we have all done even better.
Notice a pattern?
Quote:
Why do the upper crust get ever increasing compensation and bonuses
while the American worker's wages continue to fall.
Because of the competition those workers face from their figurative and literal siblings.
Fewer of them as a raw number = better wages for the rest.
Yo can add in the decimation of trade and labor unions as well.
Quote:
...but what about all those displaced workers who are now on welfare?
Is the ever growing number of such people good for this country?
No. Dealing with them is the #1 threat to our national (and economic) security.
We need to reduce their number and not create yet another generation of them.
Last edited by MrRational; 03-29-2015 at 06:06 PM..
When this country started we imported a lot of goods. Today we import a lot of goods.
America also got it's start using Tariffs to protect domestic industries and fund the federal government. Something needed today as well as breaking up domestic oligarchies IMHO
What is not being said, is all of the onshoring that is being done in this country. This involves foreign owned companies opening manufacturing plants in the U.S. Over 5,000,000 Americans are working for those companies, and it is increasing and expected to increase at the same rate for at least the next 10 years, at 1,000,000 new American jobs opening up in the US by foreign owned companies.
I smell BS in these numbers...sources? I've have sources saying otherwise and will get them if needed.
Lets just take one type of American onshoring. There are 13 auto companies building cars in the U.S. today. 10 of them are foreign labels owned by foreign owners. 3 are American Brands, and one of those 3 was sold to foreign owners. Foreign owned auto factories building foreign brands of cars build more cars than the American owned ones in this country. Those foreign brands, are the basis for American companies building parts for the cars, which produce a lot of American Jobs. Some of those foreign owned companies use more American made parts, than American owned factories.
Ahh, this meme. 1) There is a difference between assembling and "building" cars here. 2) Many American owned part makers were run out of business to be replaced by foreign owned ones, yes they employ Americans but most of the profit goes overseas. 3) It is true that some foreign companies use more US components in their cars then US companies do, sadly.
Low priced items that take a lot of hand labor, cannot be made in this country at a competitive price. Those factories are closed, due to being priced out of the market. As they are doing it, they keep half or more of their employees in the U.S., only part of the jobs go overseas. It comes down to make a choice, go out of business, or lay off half or less of the employees and have the goods made overseas.
Or raise tariffs. There are all sorts of hidden cost that make the cost of tariffs not seem so high, like the loss of 2.7 million manufacturing jobs since the 90ies. The loss of those jobs, which I have a feeling is a truer stat than what you quoted above, puts a lot of wage pressure downward, robs local municipalities of tax revenues, and kills service businesses that relied on these jobs.
America also got it's start using Tariffs to protect domestic industries and fund the federal government.
Because A) collecting tariff taxes was low hanging fruit that didn't require additional civil administration
to ferret out the income numbers of the few who ever earned much of any actual cash money ...
and B) the buyers of those goods being imported were almost entirely the wealthy.
Quote:
Or raise tariffs. There are all sorts of hidden cost that make the cost of tariffs not seem so high,
like the loss of 2.7 million manufacturing jobs since the 90ies.
Unlike in the 18th and 19th century a very large part, perhaps most, of imported goods today
are things that will be bought by the lower two quintile's. Raising the market price of these
products is like adding yet another regressive sales tax on the least able to pay.
btw... we've been bleeding manufacturing jobs since the 70's
Quote:
The loss of those jobs, which I have a feeling is a truer stat than what you quoted above,
puts a lot of wage pressure downward, robs local municipalities of tax revenues,
and kills service businesses that relied on these jobs.
That's one side of the equation. The other side is the number of warm bodies available.
At the lower, no/low skill end of the spectrum especially, the problem today is less about
not having enough jobs than it is about having too many people available for the jobs that
actually need doing. It's true in the higher levels as well but not to the same degree.
Because A) collecting tariff taxes was low hanging fruit that didn't require additional civil administration
to ferret out the income numbers of the few who ever earned much of any actual cash money ...
and B) the buyers of those goods being imported were almost entirely the wealthy.
Unlike in the 18th and 19th century a very large part, perhaps most, of imported goods today
are things that will be bought by the lower two quintile's. Raising the market price of these
products is like adding yet another regressive sales tax on the least able to pay.
Manufacturing was also much different back in those times. There was not mass production like we think of today. There might be one shop building a custom bicycle on one corner, another making iron gates, another making custom machinery or tools for nearby businesses. In that time, business was much more condensed, and reserved for the wealthy.
Mass production meant fewer shops were needed. A facility in England may be able to pump out enough nails to satisfy all the demand in Maryland, putting those competitors out of business. Tariffs added to the cost of doing business at a time when less affluent consumers were coming to the table. Tariffs don't encourage consumption, and do not encourage domestic industry to evolve.
Today, we have automatic nail making machines in India spitting out enough nails to keep our construction businesses satisfied. We could add tariffs, but I doubt there are many automatic nail making machines here. That's "low hanging fruit". Besides that, you don't need a worker to sit in front of it all day anyway. Very little job creation, even though the output is immense.
Truth be told, we have been "bleeding" manufacturing jobs for over 100 years. While the cycles wax and wane, there is a never ending propensity to have as much work done by as few people as possible... A trend that has been carried over to many sectors and industries over the past 30 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational
At the lower, no/low skill end of the spectrum especially, the problem today is less about
not having enough jobs than it is about having too many people available for the jobs that
actually need doing. It's true in the higher levels as well but not to the same degree.
There are plenty of jobs. They are in China though. Most American's don't want those jobs.
There are plenty of jobs. They are in China though.
China also has more people available than jobs that actually need doing.
As does India and most of the other places that make our consumer goods.
The whole world is over-populated.
Even if EVERYONE was fully and well employed we still have too many.
Somehow or other we need (all countries) to find a way to dovetail the two realities
into a coherent and productive set of public and commercial/industrial policies.
Nope. Not a thing.
It was a choice though and at least partially influenced by foreign policy goals.
My world of what?
I see no place in the world for repatriated jobs to the US.
Because their parents didn't spend enough on Latex.
I could dress it up more... but that's what it comes down to.
My great-grandfather was one of 10 children.
My grandfather was one of 10 children.
He and my grandmother had 2 children; their siblings produced ten altogether.
These ten children (my fathers cousins) all did rather well in life.
In the course of that these ten cousins produced eight children total...
and we have all done even better.
Notice a pattern?
Because of the competition those workers face from their figurative and literal siblings.
Fewer of them as a raw number = better wages for the rest.
Yo can add in the decimation of trade and labor unions as well.
No. Dealing with them is the #1 threat to our national (and economic) security.
We need to reduce their number and not create yet another generation of them.
1) dont understand. needs fleshing out
2) no place, eh? I suspect there is some wisdom to be found in your theories. I shall have to pay more attention to you.
3) I suspect this is nonsense
4) notice a pattern? no.
5) competition among siblings? I would love to see mre detail analyses. sincerely
6) again I suspect great wisdom here. why is repatriation of jobs a threat? To whom?
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