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They believe in the "static pie" argument to further their redistributionist agenda. To admit that the pie grows - or that more pies can be created - defeats the notion that some must be taken from one to give to another.
It's really shocking that there are even any people at all who believe that kind of tripe. I mean literally the only thing a person needs to do in order to prove the idea false is to point out that if wealth were static then we would still be enjoying the same level of material prosperity as people from a 1000 years ago. After all, if wealth can't grow neither can peoples standards of living between generations. This is not complex to get, and yet they don't.
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Originally Posted by JRR
Just what the world needs; yet another "wealth redistribution" argument thread!!
Sure, but I feel many of them are just "let's go bash the liberals while not using arguments" style threads. As much as I dislike liberals I want actual discussions with arguments, not just flaming.
A common selling point for you people is that you want to spread the wealth/money so that more people can have more. Ok, but you do realize that it's the actual production of good and services that creates the real wealth correct? Money itself is worthless, it's just a method of making the trading of goods easier. The actual production of goods is what makes us rich. As technology grows more advanced the production and distribution of goods and services becomes more advanced which lowers prices and raises the overall wealth of society. This is the reason for why we are living better than earlier generations of humans.
However, I almost never hear people who are in favor of left-leaning economical views actually mention or discuss this. They are always focusing on the actual money/wealth itself, as if it is somehow the true valuables. It's not. If you want to make people better off, then you need to find a way to make the production of goods and services more advanced. That is the ONLY way standards of living can become higher. As as always been the case in history.
Let's say you have your way and that starting today the rich pay a 90% tax and everyone else way less, that the minimum wage is way higher, and that welfare/social programs are used to give people more of the rich peoples money.
Now what? How will this make the economy stronger? How has doing this contributed to increased production and distribution of goods and services? What is the economic magic behind your wealth distribution ideas???
Let's start off with this. Over the past decades, output per person has skyrocketed. The average worker produces much more than he did 50 years ago. If production makes us rich, then wages should have kept pace. They did not.
Most of the wage increases went to executives who, even if they were dismal failures, ended up with millions in salary and bonuses, and golden parachutes if they were fired.
The common argument for executive pay is that they were rewarded with stock and stock options, which is what dramatically raised their pay. True, but why not extended the program to the employees? Some companies (particularly tech start ups) have done this and even their lowest paid employees are worth hundreds of thousands of dollars or more.
The large profits should be split more equitably between the producers and the executives. If this were done, we wouldn't have to worry about low wages.
Let's start off with this. Over the past decades, output per person has skyrocketed. The average worker produces much more than he did 50 years ago. If production makes us rich, then wages should have kept pace. They did not.
Ok, there are few things you are utterly ignoring.
For starters, wages do not need to get higher in order for people to benefit. It's not the wages that matter as much as it is what they will buy you. Thanks to modern technology (which exists only because of investments), modern westerns can now afford life improving technologies and goods that in the past would have been beyond their ability to buy. Take TV's for example. In the past I could NEVER have afforded a big nice plasma, but now lots of people have them because technology has made them cheaper.
Second, you are ignoring all of the indirect ways in which additional wealth generation benefits soceity which don't involve wages themselves getting higher. When companies and individuals make more cash, the taxman gets riches also even if taxes aren't raised. This in return gives the government more chances to either spend that money for society or use it to lower taxes more.
Perhaps you should factor those things in before you say more production makes no difference?
For starters, wages do not need to get higher in order for people to benefit. It's not the wages that matter as much as it is what they will buy you.
Why don't you make the same apology for the top 0.01%? They experienced a *real* 700% increase in income in the last 40 years compared the median 0%. Didn't they get all these new tech toys as well?
Why don't you make the same apology for the top 0.01%? They experienced a *real* 700% increase in income in the last 40 years compared the median 0%. Didn't they get all these new tech toys as well?
I'm not sure what your point is. My point was what wages don't need to rise to improve peoples standards of living, and that the wealthy making more money does in fact benefit us.
Look at it this way: Since these people are now making 7 times the money they are paying us 7 times the tax. With that in mind, would we better off had they been not allowed to get filthy rich?
A common selling point for you people is that you want to spread the wealth/money so that more people can have more. Ok, but you do realize that it's the actual production of good and services that creates the real wealth correct? Money itself is worthless, it's just a method of making the trading of goods easier. The actual production of goods is what makes us rich. As technology grows more advanced the production and distribution of goods and services becomes more advanced which lowers prices and raises the overall wealth of society. This is the reason for why we are living better than earlier generations of humans.
As a "right wing" person......money is important because it is the unit of measure.
It is also how one measures the production of goods and services.
National wealth is important, but the distribution of the wealth is critical to democracies. When the distribution of wealth fell apart in societies they went to hell rather quickly. Germany, Russia, and countless others serve as historical examples.
It isn't about the 1% being more productive. It is about the 1% using the tax code and government to further press their advantage.
The left does not understand basic economics. However, the Elites in this country understand it far too well. I suspect this is why a simple subject like economics is not taught in high school. Otherwise the "American people and their pitchforks" would not tolerate it.
It is about FAIR. Governments need to be FAIR. It is NOT FAIR for Boeing, Apple, GE, and all the other corporations pay LESS than a small business in taxes. It is NOT FAIR that Obama, Romney, Pelosi, and Boehner pay less in marginal tax rate than my 25 year old daughter!!!
This is the reason for why we are living better than earlier generations of humans.
My father and mother were held as slaves by Germans during World War II. Should I be grateful that I was not born a slave?? Merely born poor and therefore should be happy with the Elites and their special place. Your argument is typical for the Elites.
Leftists don't believe that wealth can be created, except by government printing presses.
No. I'm a "leftist" as you would call it but let me redirect you to my earlier post where I explained the government's role in "wealth creation." It isn't some "liberal plot."
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Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
You don't realize what you are talking about. Money itself is fiat; it has value by law. It is backed / pegged / represents the amount of goods and services in the economy. This is how it works:
The government issues IOUs in the form of debt-based currency, by creating the budget in Congress. We are the little worker bees that get compensated with dollars. Taxation discourages hoarding and deflates the currency, as issuing the currency in excess of production is what is inflationary. We are "rich" as a nation because we control more resources and interests geopolitically than other countries. That, along with our favorable trade agreements.
^^^ Read, accept, and understand.
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Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX
They believe in the "static pie" argument to further their redistributionist agenda. To admit that the pie grows - or that more pies can be created - defeats the notion that some must be taken from one to give to another. Of course, that belief is predicated upon the the false notion that equal outcomes are the only true indicator of fairness (fairness of process be damned). I could take this out to its logical conclusion, but I'm not here to knock down their entire house of cards...
No, and this part isn't political. To cure inequality, some must indeed be taken from one to give to another. "Wealth" is not measured in dollars; it is measured in dollars relative to the entire pie. If everyone has $10 million, no one is rich... because $10 million is not considered rich. If everyone has $1, and one person has $10 million, that one person is rich. It's not the dollars that makes one rich, it is the gap.
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