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I have said similar things here on CD. I think it boils down to one word: Corruption. The U.S. citizenry and its politicians are much more corrupt. Put another way, Scandinavia has high levels of social trust. The U.S. doesn't. Therefore, you can't impose a Scandinavian style system from the top down and expect it to work. Corruption will ruin any system, no matter how good. But saying this never dissuades the true believers.
and people keep holding scandinavia up for what reason? last i remember, they don't have a large industrial sector
and talking about their economy, it is mostly "great" due to their small size, it takes the bunch of them together to equal a larger state in the US
talking about how good other countries have it, it isn't any different than just comparing each state in the US to a country. Outside of the top 20 GDPs in the world, each US state has a GDP that rivals entire countries
so sure, take a pick if a european country, they don't have a better system, its just different
before trying to emulate a foreign country, why not see how some states do better, and just copy that?
But that's not the case. So how does an American earning $20 an hour compete with a Mexican earning $16 a day?
You can't, so you need to find something else to do. If you cannot find something else to do, then you'll have to devolve your Standard of Living and Life-Style into something more manageable.
and people keep holding scandinavia up for what reason? last i remember, they don't have a large industrial sector?
I think there are lots of reasons they are held up as a model: low crime, well educated populace, high quality social services, mass transit and medical care that actually work and aren't rife with inefficiency and corruption. A government that makes changes when they see something isn't working, instead of just throwing more money at various problems (i.e. education. Even liberal Warren Buffet recently admitted in an interview that a lack of money isn't really the core problem with K-12 education in the U.S.).
I don't know the size of the industrial sector as a portion of their economies per se. Obviously, Norway pumps a lot of oil. Yet, unlike many petro states (Venezuela), they actually tax the oil wealth and save and invest that money in a sovereign wealth fund for their citizens, instead of blowing the money and then having their economy crash when the oil price falls.
However, as I said, my main issue with Scandinavia lovers is they think such a system can be implemented from the top down. I don't. And like you, I am sure I wouldn't find all aspects of their system desirable. Sure those fast food workers make 40K per year, but the general cost of living in those countries is very much inflated as well. Sure, it's easier to pay for college and health care, but you pay through the nose for and/or do without other things in order to get that "free" college and health care.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeb
and talking about their economy, it is mostly "great" due to their small size, it takes the bunch of them together to equal a larger state in the US?
I think that's an oversimplification. Other small countries don't necessarily do as well. I do think they've used their small size to their advantage, though. I also think a high degree of social trust created by a homogenous culture is a big part of their success. But that homogeneity is being eroded, so I am not sure if the new immigrants will buy into their ethic to the same degree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeb
so sure, take a pick if a european country, they don't have a better system, its just different
before trying to emulate a foreign country, why not see how some states do better, and just copy that?
We already know the answer. For the most part, the northern states do better than the southern states. It almost doesn't matter what the politics are. New Hampshire is libertarian, but they do as well or better on social and economic metrics as more socialist Vermont next door. There's something about cold weather climates that create some "get up and go" in people. In warm climates, it's easier to be a lazy slug and those states have more of such people and/or a lack of a sense of urgency to change or improve things when something is clearly not working.
I think that where you live in Ohio strongly influences your outlook.
Just as my living in Denver influences mine.
I am very optimistic.
There was an article a short time ago demonstrating this.
Acceptance of economic globalization was inversely related to the person's relative risk of job loss. Which has been much higher in the rust belt. I can't find the article to link it.
There was an article a short time ago demonstrating this.
Acceptance of economic globalization was inversely related to the person's relative risk of job loss. Which has been much higher in the rust belt. I can't find the article to link it.
Deindustrialization is good, generally, but not in all cases, for example
we need to develop new technologies, instead of being dependent on
old ones, and those need new industrialization.
On the other hand, we need less consumerism and less dependency
on corporations.
I voted yes, with exceptions.
Industrialization to a certain extent required a critical mass of population to draw the workforce from. Denmark, for example, never had the population really necessary for large-scale industry. It went from an agriculture and trade based economy to a service one.
However, Norway and Sweden had significant manufacturing sectors during the industrial revolution - they produced steel, textiles, etc.... Germany, obviously, was an powerhouse during the industrial era. Since they have undergone the deindustrialization process, the northern European economies ARE relevant here.
It should be noted that they are not FREE of industry; they have advanced manufacturing. I'd argue that a country is still industrialized to an extent if it produces autos for the world market - obviously Germany does and so does Sweden with Volvo. The economies in northern Europe are still about 25% based on manufacture export.
Again, I've been to these countries and the big difference is that there is much more of a sense of cohesion and cooperation. In the USA we work against each other. In Sweden, they do not think in terms of what helps Stockholm must not be good for Gothenburg and thus they need to compete. In the U.S., and I just heard Donald Trump say this morning, we compete against each other -- he said "the states are in competition." We see states trying to poach jobs from other states by luring companies with various tax benefits. In Sweden or Norway such a thought process does not even occur to them. Their agricultural, industrial and service sectors are viewed as a whole.
If we are going to succeed in deindustrializing the USA, we have to work cohesively and not against each other. What the northern European countries do is invest their profits back in themselves. I was amazed when I saw their education system - you can actually become a farmer if you want, without having to have much pre-existing capital, as is necessary in the U.S. You go into the agricultural program through their education system and you get placed as a farmer's apprentice and you take over after a while. It's not economically feasible in truth... it's subsidized, but they see those subsidies from more profitable areas of their economy as valuable to keep their agriculture alive. They don't complain that someone else is getting something for nothing.
I see maybe? The Scandinavians work for each other instead of against each other. How un-American.
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Location matters
