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So, I guess we can make some arithmetic estimates of "working hard". A millionaire works 20 times as hard as a 50k grunt, a billionaire is 20,000 times as hard working. You are not laughing yet? I dont really know why people use this oxymoron rationalization. A society/economy is a parasitic coercive pyramid extracting labor and resources from many to reward few with disproportioned share of the collective output. You can use whatever rationale, from "hard work" to the will of the Universe, to justify why some should fleece 200,000 times more than the others, but sad truth is that free, independent people would never allow 20,000 ratios of "hard work" to happen. It is not about you or hard work, it is all about "the coercive system" that allows parasitic relationships of 200,000 kind.
Obviously, you have no concept of creating VALUE.
My post from another thread:
Working hard is ONE low level way to create more value....but it's far from the only thing in determining pay.
If I dig a trench with a spoon, I worked harder than someone who pressed a few buttons on an excavator. However, they are clearly more valuable. Just like the staff or senior level CPA who's buried in work isn't as valuable as the VP sitting with an empty desk....because his one phone call with specialized high level big picture knowledge can save the company MILLIONS ....sure, I just saved us $10,000 on this state tax return and there's no doubt that I'll save more on the 65 other small projects I'm swirling the drain trying to complete...but he came up with a detailed plan to repatriate foreign earnings and save the company $95,000,000.
Professional athletes don't work hard enough to deserve the pay they get compared to say a doctor. But the economic VALUE that they create, demands that they get paid that much.
Last edited by Thatsright19; 05-26-2016 at 07:29 PM..
Oh, brother, you can never supply enough "proof" for the naysayers. I did this on CD before...then I got accused of bragging...or lying.......or I have some special situation that doesn't apply to others (as if anyone's situation could be identical to another's).
But here goes:
--Rent: $985 (studio apt...that is a steal for this area, I admit, but still expensive compared to most of America)
--Electric & Gas: $35
--Internet: $53
--Cell Phone: $25
--Health Insurance: $86
--Car & Renter's Insurance: $65
--Dining Out: $120
--Pool Membership: $30
--Groceries: (A guess because I don't have a strict budget for this): $400
--Travel: $50
--Gas: $15 (I walk to work)
--Haircuts: $18
-Cable TV: $0
Monthly Expenses: $1882.
I'll round up so that stuff like car and computer repairs, miscellaneous entertainment, etc. are included and in case I underestimated stuff like gas and travel (although I did round up some of the expenses I listed above...i.e. I usually wait at least 6 weeks to get my $18 hair cut, the electric bill/gas is usually more like $25, etc. I also didn't include things like credit card cash back bonuses.)....So let's say $2100 a month = $25,200 per year.
After taxes and pension contributions, I didn't really put anything in regular savings accounts, but didn't take anything out, either. Last year I put $14,756 in my workplace retirement plan, and that doesn't include additional money, maybe $1000 put into IRAs, plus a few hundred in taxable investment accounts.
So conservatively, the workplace retirement plan savings alone are 29% of my gross. In actuality, I probably saved about 1/3 or just under 1/3 of my gross.
Honestly, I do not know what people spend their money on. I feel like I blow a fair amount on stupid stuff that I don't really need, especially regarding food and dining out.
Last edited by mysticaltyger; 05-26-2016 at 07:35 PM..
Not to mention, you aren't accounting for RISK and the opportunity cost of them allocating their assets. Of course people with money will make more money...they are putting their money to work to achieve unearned income.
People who will never have money are the ones who never tip the scale to accumulate capital. Even high income individuals squander these chances by blowing it on consumption.
Real anecdotes of now rich people that started poor:
1. Person A grew up in a poor trailer park in a small city. He was a solid C/D student whose parents were part of a wacky religion. His friends were losers. He made a good collections guy, but he wanted respect. He took a side job sweeping industrial chimneys. He learned how it worked. He taught his loser friends. They're now in 7 states. He barely works anymore.
2. Person B got to the US after leaving everything behind to board a makeshift raft and float float into a Thai camp, eventually getting into the US. Took a crap job to get started. Guy can't read English, but started a dry cleaning plant and slowly started sponsoring family. Helped people get started in country and later either move on or start their own businesses. Still can't read worth a lick but still has their plant and a few apartment buildings. Still works like a dog 6-7 days a week.
3. Person C grew up poor with the whole 9 yards of crappy school. He had some early trouble with the law so he was having trouble even getting a job. Then he switched his tactic. Instead of going to businesses and asking for a job, he went to them and offered his "company's" janitorial services. He sold some and he and some of his friends started cleaning buildings. He now has 7 condos in the Bay Area...and his business. He worked hard, but now basically backfills assignments.
4. Person D grew up poor and in a rural area. He has massive ADHD and had trouble staying at jobs too long. Yet his ADHD kept him not focused on his assignment, but very interested in picking up how to do lots of little jobs all companies have to do and started calling the ones that had problems to offer help. He started a consulting company and now works on different assignments every day and has made a lot of money. Dude worked like a dog, but now that he's got his clientele, takes it easier.
5. Person E finished high school in a medium sized town. He liked theatre, but the staging of it. He kept trying things in the little community theatres where he was to see what lights could do. A band came to town and he offered to work with them for free on stage lights. Pretty soon, he began working local venues, trying to see what all the equipment did and the effects he could make. Soon he began touring with ever bigger bands. Now he owns equipment and trains crews to go do the shows he designs for some of the biggest bands around. He also owns an apartment building in Chicago and some shaving store. This guy was all in, but loves what he does. Even when we're on social time he loves dreaming up what some new equipment will do. I mean, is that work?
6. Person F was a musician who got a bump in a horrible way. Mother was murdered and their was a small life insurance policy. He was friendly and people liked him. Some friends of his had a crazy idea of making fancy cupcakes. He became the cash only this isn't a horror story. He helped pitch them and they became a commercial placement in businesses around Chicago. He worked hard...at his music. That eventually got him into some of the best operas, but I don't think he's done more than show up to board meetings for the business.
The point is there is no magic formula. That's why nobody cares about whiners. Why the rich get pissed off is I'm sure none of those businesses had perfect compliance out of the gate day 1. Permits, zoning, employer laws, legal concerns, insurance, accounting and taxes.....when do you get to focus on the business? It's easy for most business entrepreneurs to look back and say....geez, i don't think we had handicapped accessible bathrooms....we could have been in major trouble.
They also didn't do anything amazing. A and C clean. B runs a dry cleaning plant. D says most of his work is taking mundane crap and making it work better. E does some cool stuff, but its stuff a high schooler playing with equipment figured out. F is our dumb luck candidate. Right little bit of money, right time.
Except for F, they all learned something from their jobs, but didn't stop at learning their jobs. They learned a trade. 100 years ago it was just assumed you would learn a trade and open your little store. Is the American entrepreneurial aspect so far dead that we're reviewing socialism and thinking....if they just tweaked it here and here....
Man up whiners....anything is going to pay you more than posting here.
So, I guess we can make some arithmetic estimates of "working hard". A millionaire works 20 times as hard as a 50k grunt, a billionaire is 20,000 times as hard working. You are not laughing yet? I dont really know why people use this oxymoron rationalization. A society/economy is a parasitic coercive pyramid extracting labor and resources from many to reward few with disproportioned share of the collective output. You can use whatever rationale, from "hard work" to the will of the Universe, to justify why some should fleece 200,000 times more than the others, but sad truth is that free, independent people would never allow 20,000 ratios of "hard work" to happen. It is not about you or hard work, it is all about "the coercive system" that allows parasitic relationships of 200,000 kind.
I assume you own your home; it would be quite difficult to save more than 10% of a $50K gross in the Bay Area if you did not have a housing cost advantage such as owning or cheap/no rent.
You're wrong. Although my rent was market rate when I moved in, the landlord has only increased the rent modestly over the years. But I hardy think $985 in rent is "cheap" for my income.
The book: 'The Millionaire Nextdoor' was written after a long series of surveys and interviews.
Most 'Millionaires' in America are first generation wealth. They did not inherit wealth.
I was rather proud of myself for getting the Corporate Controller role to the CFO at a large 16 state company. I was making good money and moving fast on the job progression route.
Then I married an immigrant with a tiny shop nobody cared about and got a shocking realization on our first joint return.
So now I'm a consultant. I caught her, and then she raised prices.... I suppose i could add her to my list above. Or my uncles that started as landless farmers.
The more I think about it the more it's like....whether immigrant or not, except for dumb luck guy, all people that took a look around and said...this isn't going to work...let me try something else.
Would you have preferred I made fun of your statement that most people won't make the top 20%?
The top line number, at the end of the day, doesn't mean squat. The number that matters if your savings rate. If you can save 15% of what you make, and just invest it in an SAP 500 fund, you will be fine.
Why? Because that means you are living on 85% of what you make. The family that makes $50K and saves $7.5K of it is going to turn out way ahead of the family that makes $200K and save $7.5K of it.
If you don't want to do anything fancy, that's your plan. That mutual fund will end up making just as much as you did working. The worst thing people can do for themselves is hoard their money and not invest it. If you work 19 to 69 that's 50 years. If you live 30 years beyond that and those costs keep inflating each year....
Your back of the napkin is 15%. Do it. Invest it. You'll be fine. Not rich, but fine.
And that was my point - it'll put you in the black but not at the $1 mil mark by a long shot unless your house appreciated nicely.
Oh, brother, you can never supply enough "proof" for the naysayers. I did this on CD before...then I got accused of bragging...or lying.......or I have some special situation that doesn't apply to others (as if anyone's situation could be identical to another's).
But here goes:
--Rent: $985 (studio apt...that is a steal for this area, I admit, but still expensive compared to most of America)
--Electric & Gas: $35
--Internet: $53
--Cell Phone: $25
--Health Insurance: $86
--Car & Renter's Insurance: $65
--Dining Out: $120
--Pool Membership: $30
--Groceries: (A guess because I don't have a strict budget for this): $400
--Travel: $50
--Gas: $15 (I walk to work)
--Haircuts: $18
-Cable TV: $0
Monthly Expenses: $1882.
I'll round up so that stuff like car and computer repairs, miscellaneous entertainment, etc. are included and in case I underestimated stuff like gas and travel (although I did round up some of the expenses I listed above...i.e. I usually wait at least 6 weeks to get my $18 hair cut, the electric bill/gas is usually more like $25, etc. I also didn't include things like credit card cash back bonuses.)....So let's say $2100 a month = $25,200 per year.
After taxes and pension contributions, I didn't really put anything in regular savings accounts, but didn't take anything out, either. Last year I put $14,756 in my workplace retirement plan, and that doesn't include additional money, maybe $1000 put into IRAs, plus a few hundred in taxable investment accounts.
So conservatively, the workplace retirement plan savings alone are 29% of my gross. In actuality, I probably saved about 1/3 or just under 1/3 of my gross.
Honestly, I do not know what people spend their money on. I feel like I blow a fair amount on stupid stuff that I don't really need, especially regarding food and dining out.
I spend about 900 more. A lot of stuff like your internet & phone seem cheaper than possible. About 200 of that is higher phone, internet, cable. We have local monopoly so there is high price floor especially for internet. If I want decent internet it only costs $30 more for cable and they significantly up the bandwidth cap. There is only 1 Nothing I can do about it. Another at least 250-350 is vehicle expense - both the wife and I have cars, but they need gas to travel the 40-50 mile commute we both have to make a few times a week so that's about $150-200. No payments but they are old, break down a few times times a year, & need frequent maintenance as old cars do, I estimate about 45 per car per month for repairs & maintenance for both when spread out over 12 months. Living closer is not an option since that would approximately double our housing cost.
Are you married, kids, pets?
I used to have a budget like that and saved 30-40% of what I made but when I got married it got blown out of the water. My wife doesn't spend money frivolously at all... quite the opposite I've made her cry a few times over things I shouldn't have like buying make-up or a new pair of jeans from Target, now she is afraid to buy anything which is probably not healthy for the marriage...
It's just that taking care of two people is a lot more expensive than one. Food for 2, health insurance for 2, phone plan doubled, etc... I married into a cat with a heart problem who needs pills, so veterinary bills. Most of what cuts into the savings are the irregular expenses. Large car repair etc... We've had to travel by air several times this year for family reasons... we could have chosen not to do those things - but then we don't see the family and we only get to see them once every few years at best. Ie: my uncle is having a retirement celebration next month... he is one of only 2 uncles... i get to see him at best once every 5 years...I could save the $500 it'll cost me to go but I may not see him again until 2020 if I go that route. Our house needed a new roof. etc...
Last edited by redguard57; 05-26-2016 at 11:10 PM..
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