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Old 07-25-2016, 11:37 PM
 
10,075 posts, read 7,469,576 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill the Butcher View Post
What are you getting at here? You are okay with spending millions of tax payer dollars for something that is increasing at an aplarently out of control rate? If we are going to pay for college it needs to be at the cheapest price possible, not a bidding war.
well, I'd be happy if tax payers just didn't subsidize college... education to me that is tax funded should end at 18.

I just don't think everyone needs to attend college for a job. I think they should attend at some point in life just for their own growth. But that has nothing to do with why people "attend" college for the most part.

private scholarships/grant/money is enough to help people who can't afford it
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Old 07-26-2016, 12:37 AM
 
1,198 posts, read 1,780,824 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
I never interpreted "tuition-free" to be a blank check. It should incentivize students to make the most cost effective choices.

This is how I would structure a "tuition-free" program:

1) community college - should already be tuition-free & some states are already moving in this direction.

2) 4-year university - tuition free for in-state residents who meet admissions requirements. You don't get tuition-free from any college you want, just the ones you get into after high school or after community college. I would also force students to lock in a choice so they couldn't transfer or change majors all over the place. You also only get tuition-free for classes that are on a degree plan. You'd get maybe 1 chance to change majors then the waiver goes away if you change again, so students are not staying in school forever & incentivizes them to research their major. Must maintain gpa requirements to keep waiver - I'd say 1.6 (C-) or higher. Not room and board. Not fees. Not books. Not expenses. This would incentivize students to live at home where it's cheaper.

If you want to make things less efficient like transferring a lot, changing majors so it takes you 6 years to graduate, living away from home, you'd still have to pay for all that.

With the option I outlined above, a student could get a college degree almost free of charge other than books and fees, but it would be a fairly narrow path to do it.
A 1.6 GPA? Why the f would America be on the hook for someone who can't put in an honest effort?

I went to undergrad on a full ride, and to do so I had to maintain a 3.5, and that was after jumping through dozens of hoops and a highly competitive selection process.

A 1.6? Ha.
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Old 07-26-2016, 08:23 AM
 
Location: Southeast U.S
850 posts, read 896,789 times
Reputation: 1007
Quote:
Originally Posted by MLSFan View Post
well, I'd be happy if tax payers just didn't subsidize college... education to me that is tax funded should end at 18.

I just don't think everyone needs to attend college for a job. I think they should attend at some point in life just for their own growth. But that has nothing to do with why people "attend" college for the most part.

private scholarships/grant/money is enough to help people who can't afford it
There are a lot of things that tax payers have to subsidize for that we all don't agree with. I don't think someone should receive section 8 (free housing) for popping out babies out of wedlock, the US provides food stamps to low income households when in the European countires they let their citizens starve if they don't have enough money for groceries.

You're right college is not required for a job and in fact is a poor investment if the degree doesn't net a starting salary greater than $50k. That Salary is nothing these days. $50k barely covers living expenses and most can't even save 15-20% of there salary every year like most finiancial advisors recommend.

There are plenty of jobs for high school graduates to enter into that pays decent money and doesn't require an exspensive 4 year degree. Police Officer, Truck Driver (I know some who are owner/operators that clear $150k+ a year), dental hygienist (only requires 2 years of schooling and pays $70-75k a year in my area), and sales job (you have to be talented at selling but if you are you can make 6 figures).

Someone who is very talkative and aggressive can be very successful in sales without any education. It's the profession that doesn't discriminate. Doesn't matter if you have a PHD from Harvard or a 5th grade education. If you can sell and meet your quotas your golden and will be making a $100k+ salary and no schooling required. All you need is just a couple weeks of training.
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Old 07-26-2016, 02:36 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
10,004 posts, read 7,141,761 times
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College is not the kind of service that you can make more of and lower the price. That's what Baumol's cost disease means - the supply-demand curve does not apply. If you do more of it, you just get higher costs.

The only way to lower the cost is to have fewer people go. Countries like Germany subsidize their college students but they have fewer of them. They also have a K-12 system that blows ours out of the water. Their secondary school graduates are as career ready as our college students, so their colleges are for the professional-level jobs that actually require it.

We look at college in the U.S. as job-preparation academies, but they also double as gate-keepers to a middle class coming of age ritual. Simultaneously providing an experience service, an education service, and a workforce preparation service for an increasing number of people is just plain expensive. No way to get around it. Universities were not originally meant to do all that so it's no wonder their prices have gone out of control as they struggle & expand well beyond their original missions to provide those services.

If we want to lower the cost of college we've got to fix K-12, and I'm sorry to say, that's going to be a heck of a lot more expensive. What's the difference with European K-12 equivalents? 1) they have tracking, 2) they have professional teachers, 3) they have buy-in (read: respect) from the population, 4) they don't have all the "crap" - ie: sports, football, pep rallies, extra-curriculars - they focus on friggin' academics and work hard at it. 5) they don't have the layers and layers of administration and governance. We say that in America we like less government, but our schools are pulled in every direction by 4 or 5 governmental layers - federal, state, city/county, and then school district, that all have their own agendas. In Europe they coordinate & make decisions nationally and only administer & maintain locally.

Just this summer I helped run a workshop for high school teachers. The teachers were well-meaning, hard-working people but they were not content professionals, which became abundantly clear after working with them the first day. They have these generic "education" degrees which teach them how to administer a class, not about the actual subject. Principals throw textbooks at them (some of which are politically motivated by agenda-driven state legislators) and say "teach it to the kids, get them through."

Fixing that means we need to get people with actual content degrees into teaching... and the top students from their graduating classes, not the ones that barely passed. To become a teacher in a place like Finland is more analogous with becoming a college professor or a doctor in the U.S. That is NOT cheap - we'd have to pay teachers more which no one wants to do. In the U.S. we look at teaching as a "backup career" for people who wash out of something more prestigious. That's not how it works over there. Teacher preparation programs in Finland only take 10% of applicants and they are 5 YEARS LONG. https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...-are-different, https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...4_kzLw&cad=rja

In the U.S. teacher preparation is one semester of student teaching and then they are thrown into the lion's den.

There is also a cultural thing going on in Finland that would not work in the U.S. Finnish teachers are only paid on average about $40K a year, but the prestige factor is so high, the positions so competitive and respected, that highly qualified people still want to do it. The only analogous job in the U.S. I can think of is college professor - where you don't get paid a ton but you get a lot of non-monetary "prestige" compensation. Short of changing the U.S. culture toward teachers & intellectuals we'd have to make the jobs more prestigious by paying more & restricting access.

And that's just to fix 1 of the problems I mentioned.

Quite frankly it would be cheaper and easier to just subsidize public college.

Last edited by redguard57; 07-26-2016 at 02:55 PM..
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Old 07-26-2016, 09:30 PM
 
10,075 posts, read 7,469,576 times
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Easier fix, don't let them pass the grade if they can't pass the exit exam at end of the term. And if parents get upset, fine them because they failed to educate their kids. It isn't the schools job to be the sole educator. If the kid fails the same grade two years in a row, they lose custody of the kid.
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Old 07-27-2016, 07:54 AM
 
Location: USA
6,230 posts, read 6,887,270 times
Reputation: 10768
College should only be for those who qualify. You'd be surprised how many students have to take remedial elementary school subjects like basic math and writing before they can start college level classes.

If you get to college not knowing how to do basic math or writing a proper sentence you really don't belong there. The problem is that outside the skilled trades, there is very little jobs left that pay a living wage that someone can get without a college education.
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Old 07-27-2016, 08:24 AM
 
5,342 posts, read 6,132,422 times
Reputation: 4719
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Chemist View Post
There are a lot of things that tax payers have to subsidize for that we all don't agree with. I don't think someone should receive section 8 (free housing) for popping out babies out of wedlock, the US provides food stamps to low income households when in the European countires they let their citizens starve if they don't have enough money for groceries.

You're right college is not required for a job and in fact is a poor investment if the degree doesn't net a starting salary greater than $50k. That Salary is nothing these days. $50k barely covers living expenses and most can't even save 15-20% of there salary every year like most finiancial advisors recommend.

There are plenty of jobs for high school graduates to enter into that pays decent money and doesn't require an exspensive 4 year degree. Police Officer, Truck Driver (I know some who are owner/operators that clear $150k+ a year), dental hygienist (only requires 2 years of schooling and pays $70-75k a year in my area), and sales job (you have to be talented at selling but if you are you can make 6 figures).

Someone who is very talkative and aggressive can be very successful in sales without any education. It's the profession that doesn't discriminate. Doesn't matter if you have a PHD from Harvard or a 5th grade education. If you can sell and meet your quotas your golden and will be making a $100k+ salary and no schooling required. All you need is just a couple weeks of training.
lol that a starting salary for a 22 year old of $50k barely covers living expenses.
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Old 07-28-2016, 08:39 PM
 
18,481 posts, read 15,427,784 times
Reputation: 16129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Chemist View Post
There are a lot of things that tax payers have to subsidize for that we all don't agree with. I don't think someone should receive section 8 (free housing) for popping out babies out of wedlock, the US provides food stamps to low income households when in the European countires they let their citizens starve if they don't have enough money for groceries.

You're right college is not required for a job and in fact is a poor investment if the degree doesn't net a starting salary greater than $50k. That Salary is nothing these days. $50k barely covers living expenses and most can't even save 15-20% of there salary every year like most finiancial advisors recommend.

There are plenty of jobs for high school graduates to enter into that pays decent money and doesn't require an exspensive 4 year degree. Police Officer, Truck Driver (I know some who are owner/operators that clear $150k+ a year), dental hygienist (only requires 2 years of schooling and pays $70-75k a year in my area), and sales job (you have to be talented at selling but if you are you can make 6 figures).

Someone who is very talkative and aggressive can be very successful in sales without any education. It's the profession that doesn't discriminate. Doesn't matter if you have a PHD from Harvard or a 5th grade education. If you can sell and meet your quotas your golden and will be making a $100k+ salary and no schooling required. All you need is just a couple weeks of training.
Well then by this standard how would anyone do grad school? I'm 29, many years out of undergrad, and have yet to even make $30k in a year.
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Old 07-28-2016, 10:34 PM
 
Location: Southeast U.S
850 posts, read 896,789 times
Reputation: 1007
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncole1 View Post
Well then by this standard how would anyone do grad school? I'm 29, many years out of undergrad, and have yet to even make $30k in a year.
I treat grad school as time you're spending paying your dues before entering the workforce. working for a $25-30k graduate assistant stipend doesn't really count as in the workforce.

In my industry BS and MS degrees you start off as an analytical chemists testing raw materials and validating methods. PHD holders start off as scientists and are in charge of their own project doing product development work. It takes us BS and MS folks longer to get promoted to the scientist level.

The PHD is a lottery though because you don't want to get stuck in the post doc trap.
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Old 07-29-2016, 05:07 AM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
31,343 posts, read 14,067,458 times
Reputation: 27847
Quote:
Originally Posted by swcm7950 View Post
here's a novel idea.............how about forcing corporations to hire people without the sacred cow bachelors degree??????? The bottom line is there are not enough jobs to support all the millions of americans going to college and there is not a strong nor big enough economy to give them all decent paying jobs. The entire picture is a complete mess and all everyone continues to do is discuss a few trees in a whole forest of disease! Unless we forget this nonsense that college makes people smarter instead of just making them fit into a square corporate hole, we will never reverse this monstrosity that is our college education and jobs racket. Let's face it, i've worked in many industries and for several large corporations and 3/4 of the jobs people do require a little bit of training and that's it!!! Most hr, marketing, office, administration, etc. Jobs you don't need a 4 year degree. Corporate america owns a lot of this, and the blame can be laid directly at their feet. The other elephant in the room is globalization. We as a society need to decide what's important for us.......fat pensions, fat stock markets, or a healthy job market and full employment for future generations. Because our trillions in debt is fueling one or the other, we can't have both.
exactly
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