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Yes. 20T and climbing is far too much debt no matter how you slice it.
Fear of large numbers is not a rational thing. The impact of a debt of $20 billion versus a GDP of $18 billion does not change simply by swapping out the word "billions" for "trillions." This is one reason why the debt-to-GDP ratio is used so often.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational
Don't be deliberately obtuse. It doesn't become you.
I was merely pointing out that -- contrary to an earlier assertion -- debt is in fact traded on the same basis as soybeans, pork bellies, and many other diverse products.
I wanted people to find the book and form their own opinions about decisions within the Bush administration. When you just blame Bush for everything that went wrong, people just turn you off.
Keeping within the framework of this thread, Michael Kinsley doesn't really get to the point as to how the Bush/Cheney screwup of the Clinton surplus occurred. Paul O'Neill and Alan Greenspan suggested that triggers turning off the tax cut be used so that the Bush tax cuts don't endanger the budget surplus. Bush and Cheney did not include these triggers within the tax bill.
When Trump is done IMO we will have national debt in the $30T range and will still be having these same discussions.
That will follow the past trend of Republican administrations. They are only deficit hawks when the other guy is in charge. Trump isn't really "their guy" though, but I think they prefer him to the alternatives, so will most likely go along with economic stimulation (big deficits).
No, you cannot pay off a 19+ trillion DOLLAR national debt with "dollar bills" (worthless IOUs). No, you cannot pay off a 19+ trillion DOLLAR debt, with dollars, as defined by the Coinage Act of 1792. . . not enough bullion (world supply est. 5.6 billion ounces, if coined, would compute to roughly 112 billion DOLLARS - not dollar bills - no par value). At current mining rates - and if the debt and interest were frozen - it would take 7,500 years to mine enough bullion - assuming the bullion exists.
No, you cannot pay off debt by printing up more IOUs.
No, you cannot challenge the validity of the public debt, pursuant to clause 4, 14th amendment, USCON.
No, no, no.
We're [bleeped]
. . .
P.S. - usury (charging interest) has been denounced for only 3500 years. All religions condemn it. And, no, usury is not "excessive" interest. Furthermore, the exponential equation used to compute compound interest requires an infinite money token supply to operate.
Yes, usurers rule the planet.
Shut up, sit down, pay and obey.
No, you cannot pay off a 19+ trillion DOLLAR national debt with "dollar bills" (worthless IOUs).
Yes you can, if the debt is denominated in DOLLARS. That the dollars are not backed by gold is irrelevant unless the debt is denominated in gold, which it is not. If I write a contract with you and promise to give you pieces of paper that I write "1 brownie point" on, and I keep up my end, no matter that the paper is not currency, I have kept up my end of the deal.
It is true that under the current system this will not happen, because dollars can only be borrowed into existence under current policy and there are not enough dollars to pay the debt off. However, we could return to an older system in which the country issues United States Notes, which come into existence debt-free, unlike the Federal Reserve Notes we use today.
Another possibility, however remote, is for the Fed to push interest rates negative for a very long time via Treasury auction bids while the government keeps a stack of physical cash in a secure location that will eventually be used to pay off the national debt. Current monetary policy would not allow this in any foreseeable-future scenario however.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics
No, you cannot pay off a 19+ trillion DOLLAR debt, with dollars, as defined by the Coinage Act of 1792. . . not enough bullion (world supply est. 5.6 billion ounces, if coined, would compute to roughly 112 billion DOLLARS - not dollar bills - no par value). At current mining rates - and if the debt and interest were frozen - it would take 7,500 years to mine enough bullion - assuming the bullion exists.
No, you cannot pay off debt by printing up more IOUs.
No, you cannot challenge the validity of the public debt, pursuant to clause 4, 14th amendment, USCON.
No, no, no.
We're [bleeped]
Laws can be changed. The Coinage Act was part of a larger set of statutes that established physical metals as bases for various forms of currency but the silver/gold standard is no longer in effect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics
. . .
P.S. - usury (charging interest) has been denounced for only 3500 years. All religions condemn it. And, no, usury is not "excessive" interest. Furthermore, the exponential equation used to compute compound interest requires an infinite money token supply to operate.
Yes, usurers rule the planet.
Shut up, sit down, pay and obey.
Doesn't work that way. You're forgetting about inflation. Once money is not backed by physically limited assets there is nothing stopping a fully sovereign nation from printing money to the point that the real interest rates are negative, apart from the fear of economic destabilization.
No, you cannot pay off a 19+ trillion DOLLAR national debt with "dollar bills" (worthless IOUs). No, you cannot pay off a 19+ trillion DOLLAR debt, with dollars, as defined by the Coinage Act of 1792. . . not enough bullion (world supply est. 5.6 billion ounces, if coined, would compute to roughly 112 billion DOLLARS - not dollar bills - no par value). At current mining rates - and if the debt and interest were frozen - it would take 7,500 years to mine enough bullion - assuming the bullion exists.
No, you cannot pay off debt by printing up more IOUs.
No, you cannot challenge the validity of the public debt, pursuant to clause 4, 14th amendment, USCON.
No, no, no.
We're [bleeped]
. . .
P.S. - usury (charging interest) has been denounced for only 3500 years. All religions condemn it. And, no, usury is not "excessive" interest. Furthermore, the exponential equation used to compute compound interest requires an infinite money token supply to operate.
Yes, usurers rule the planet.
Shut up, sit down, pay and obey.
The Executive could conceivably stay within our laws and pay off any and all national debt by stamping platinum proof coins of any denomination. A $T or a $20T platinum proof coin does not require that much platinum. Maybe a few thousand dollars worth.
There are religious arguments, and there are economic arguments. It is an unfortunately rare case when the latter have much of an effect on the former.
No, it's very simple. If a party satisfies an agreement they made with another party, the obligation ceases to exist. This has nothing to do with religion.
So far the scheme has been rejected, and IMO most likely will never be used.
Well, it has been used from time to time to show how silly and ineffective the idea of bright-shiny-object metallic-based currency is as against the realities of the modern world.
No, it's very simple. If a party satisfies an agreement they made with another party, the obligation ceases to exist. This has nothing to do with religion.
I understand that. It is the poster you initially replied to that apparently does not. Perhaps even after you have exposed him to the facts of the matter.
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Paul O'Neill
