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Old 03-30-2017, 05:19 PM
 
Location: Chandler, AZ
3,285 posts, read 2,635,977 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
I am pretty sure even Google etc. has a whole range of technical positions they could on job train unskilled laborers for provided the real need.
What are you smoking?

There are huge numbers of people with degrees and even experience who aren't qualified to work at most tech jobs. It is not a matter of "Sit here, press this button every time this light comes on." You think they're holding high-paying jobs that could be done by anyone jobs open because their buddies haven't gotten around to asking to climb aboard the gravy train?

You very literally have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. None. Zip. Nada.
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:08 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MISSOURI
20,726 posts, read 9,327,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turf3 View Post
First of all, manufacturing is where wealth is created (along with mining and agriculture)...
This is completely false. Wealth is created by adding value to something. It does not matter if it's value added to a widget or via a massage. If it was manufacturing, mining and agriculture that really added wealth, then economies largely dependent upon manufacturing, mining and agriculture would be the wealthiest nations in the world. But if you look at a list of nations dependent upon those sectors, and with low percentages of services in their economies, you'll notice they tend to be poorer nations.

You can find a list of nations' economic sectors here:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...elds/2012.html
^
Here is your typical agriculture and industry dominated economy:
Angola:
agriculture: 10.2%
industry: 61.4%
services: 28.4%

And here is your typical services dominated economy:
Australia:
agriculture: 3.6%
industry: 28.2%
services: 68.2%

Now you tell me which country has more wealth (per capita or however else you want to measure it) - Angola or Australia? According to your reasoning Angola should be wealthier, but I'd love to see you move to Angola over Australia to enjoy the former nation's vast troves of wealth. Lol.
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:13 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MISSOURI
20,726 posts, read 9,327,704 times
Reputation: 15459
Here:

The Creation of Wealth
Quote:
Adam Smith was the first to realize that the Wealth of a Nation was not in the accumulation of commodities nor in the resource reserves that a nation may happen to possess. But rather wealth exists in the productive knowledge of its people. The ability to efficiently transform resources (factor inputs) into desired goods and services represents the true source of a nation's wealth.
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:58 PM
 
6,326 posts, read 6,545,095 times
Reputation: 7457
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnojr View Post
What are you smoking?

There are huge numbers of people with degrees and even experience who aren't qualified to work at most tech jobs. It is not a matter of "Sit here, press this button every time this light comes on." You think they're holding high-paying jobs that could be done by anyone jobs open because their buddies haven't gotten around to asking to climb aboard the gravy train?

You very literally have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. None. Zip. Nada.
Since you imply that every glamorous organization has only highly paid ground shaking mavericks and no technical grunts you better check the stuff you are smoking. And for every Google there are thousands of non Googles where standartized routine runs supreme and instead of pushing a button people enter data in software they have no darn clue about to do this or that, just an example. And as much as you want to believe otherwise a laborer who somehow mastered rrr and smartphone is perfectly capable of mastering all of that wisdom after little bit of on job training.
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Old 03-30-2017, 09:10 PM
 
6,326 posts, read 6,545,095 times
Reputation: 7457
Quote:
Originally Posted by beb0p View Post
You're pretty sure??

Basically, you got nothing. Exactly what I thought.





And then you basically debunked your own argument.

Yes, the labs you work at DON'T just hire monkeys with minimal training like you said, and often they use Ph.Ds!

Got it. Thanks for playing.

.
you failed to understand. They hire Ph.D. temps to do monkey tasks because it is overall cheaper than hiring
HS dropouts full time to do the same tasks, hs drop outs are perfectly capable of mastering lab routine. Cheaper plentiful ph.d.s annihilated HS educated technician jobs in universities and labs. .
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Old 03-31-2017, 11:47 AM
 
13,711 posts, read 9,174,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
you failed to understand. They hire Ph.D. temps to do monkey tasks because it is overall cheaper than hiring
HS dropouts full time to do the same tasks, hs drop outs are perfectly capable of mastering lab routine. Cheaper plentiful ph.d.s annihilated HS educated technician jobs in universities and labs. .

Again, you're supporting my point that employer now demands more skill.

How, what, where, why..... that doesn't matter because I didn't talk about them. My point is that one needs more and more skill in this job market. And you keep saying things that support my point.

Yes, maybe a monkey could do those jobs; but that's besides the point because your lab is not hiring monkeys, they are hiring highly skilled Ph.Ds to do those jobs that could be performed by monkeys.

And guess what, if the jobs are that easy to do, in the future they will be performed by robots. The high skilled Ph.Ds will still be able to find other jobs because they are highly skilled. The unskilled laborer will be ever deeper in the hole. This is a swim or sink world, my son.
.
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Old 03-31-2017, 12:39 PM
 
6,326 posts, read 6,545,095 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beb0p View Post
Again, you're supporting my point that employer now demands more skill.

How, what, where, why..... that doesn't matter because I didn't talk about them. My point is that one needs more and more skill in this job market. And you keep saying things that support my point.

Yes, maybe a monkey could do those jobs; but that's besides the point because your lab is not hiring monkeys, they are hiring highly skilled Ph.Ds to do those jobs that could be performed by monkeys.

And guess what, if the jobs are that easy to do, in the future they will be performed by robots. The high skilled Ph.Ds will still be able to find other jobs because they are highly skilled. The unskilled laborer will be ever deeper in the hole. This is a swim or sink world, my son.
.
You mix up causes and effects. Labor glut allows employers to impose arbitrary employment conditions on the peons. Submitting to progressively more irrational demands not only does nothing to alleviate labor glut it taxes peons financially on top of stagnant wages. As for Ph.D.s you must be kidding, many are unemployable outside of a narrow niche and they are discriminated against by employers just like people without HS diplomas.Why Very Few People Need a Ph.D. In the master-slave paradigm it is not "skills" that matter, it is master' whims and perceptions. You propose that the peons can successfuly please masters whims, and I say that the situation when a few control survival means of the many will get progressively more explosive without some major overhaul of economic and social relationships, a new paradigm if you wish.
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Old 03-31-2017, 01:21 PM
 
13,711 posts, read 9,174,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
You mix up causes and effects. Labor glut allows employers to impose arbitrary employment conditions on the peons. Submitting to progressively more irrational demands not only does nothing to alleviate labor glut it taxes peons financially on top of stagnant wages. As for Ph.D.s you must be kidding, many are unemployable outside of a narrow niche and they are discriminated against by employers just like people without HS diplomas.Why Very Few People Need a Ph.D. In the master-slave paradigm it is not "skills" that matter, it is master' whims and perceptions. You propose that the peons can successfuly please masters whims, and I say that the situation when a few control survival means of the many will get progressively more explosive without some major overhaul of economic and social relationships, a new paradigm if you wish.

I was not talking about labor glut, I am talking about labor skill. There may be a labor glut but it doesn't nullify that the skill demand is raising, if anything, it is putting fuel on fire.

There are several Ph.Ds in my family, none of them are unemployed. Yes, some of them have narrow niche but the pool of qualified applicants for those narrow niche are extremely small; and they are well compensated for their work. Yes, very few people needs a Ph.D, but that doesn't mean Ph.Ds are not in demand!! Just like very few people needs to know how to play football, but that doesn't mean good football players aren't in demand?!!

This is not a master-slaves paradigm, using your analogy, the slaves can work hard to become masters and the masters can fall to become slaves! No one is controlling your destiny but you. Those who say otherwise is just making excuses for their failure.
.
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Old 04-01-2017, 12:23 AM
 
6,326 posts, read 6,545,095 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beb0p View Post
I was not talking about labor glut, I am talking about labor skill. There may be a labor glut but it doesn't nullify that the skill demand is raising, if anything, it is putting fuel on fire.
Since the dawn of industrial revolution owners went above and beyond to deskill and super specialize work place and the workers, but after 400 years of doing deskilling and super specialization they suddenly saw the light? If anything deskilling escalates with onslaught of technology. Work is fragmented, and individuals lose the integrated skills and comprehensive knowledge of the crafts persons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deskilling Aside from allowing employers to automate hiring process and to pass training costs on the workers and society at large, "skill" is a code word for the cheapest form of social control - self blame. You cannot get self-blame going without circular logic (e.g. you didn't get a job because you are not skilled enough, you are not skilled because you didn't get a job). You cannot get circular logic going without accepting divine qualities of the owning class and its representatives. In you short few messages you successfully applied a) an invitation to self-blame, b) circular reasoning c) an appeal to divine justice dispensed by owning class to the less than perfectly skilled peons. And I would rather call spade a spade - master/slave relationships and coercion as foundation of Economics 101.

Quote:
There are several Ph.Ds in my family, none of them are unemployed. Yes, some of them have narrow niche but the pool of qualified applicants for those narrow niche are extremely small; and they are well compensated for their work. Yes, very few people needs a Ph.D, but that doesn't mean Ph.Ds are not in demand!! Just like very few people needs to know how to play football, but that doesn't mean good football players aren't in demand?!!
So you think that the article I cited uses some mental constructs to claim Ph.D. hiring discrimination? Or it has something to do with the fact that each year 50,000 new Ph.D.s are minted in USA alone and there are no 50,000 of academic and R&D jobs waiting for them? Sure there are some academic and R&D jobs and lots of temping for the hopefuls, the rest tries their luck with "the real world" just to find out that their "skills" and education mean nothing and HR perception of them means everything. They are blacklisted and discriminated against much like HS dropouts, and then just to survive some of them must compete with HS dropouts for survival jobs and lose again because low wage employers don't think they belong there. It's a catch 22 from Hell. Surplus Ph.D.s are most definitely not in demand for pure whimsical, psychological reasons. Shouldn't corporations be all over those people because "the skill demand is raising, if anything, it is putting fuel on fire."? Can you explain that paradox without resorting to circular reasoning and divine essence?

Quote:
This is not a master-slaves paradigm, using your analogy, the slaves can work hard to become masters and the masters can fall to become slaves! No one is controlling your destiny but you. Those who say otherwise is just making excuses for their failure.
.
You make no sense. Roman slaves had a decent chance (>10%) to obtain freedom (and slaves of their own), chances of a trailer park resident joining top 1% are incalculably lower than that. Does it mean that Rome was not powered by slavery? Sorry, there is no fair play in the master-slave game, I just imagine master caste engaging slaves on equal terms that defies the point of the game. Besides no sane people would choose to play the game anyway. The fact that people are forced into this game is a curse. If this curse is our destiny we have no non dystopian future.

Last edited by RememberMee; 04-01-2017 at 12:35 AM..
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Old 04-01-2017, 03:51 AM
 
13,711 posts, read 9,174,571 times
Reputation: 9840
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Since the dawn of industrial revolution owners went above and beyond to deskill and super specialize work place and the workers, but after 400 years of doing deskilling and super specialization they suddenly saw the light? If anything deskilling escalates with onslaught of technology. Work is fragmented, and individuals lose the integrated skills and comprehensive knowledge of the crafts persons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deskilling Aside from allowing employers to automate hiring process and to pass training costs on the workers and society at large, "skill" is a code word for the cheapest form of social control - self blame. You cannot get self-blame going without circular logic (e.g. you didn't get a job because you are not skilled enough, you are not skilled because you didn't get a job). You cannot get circular logic going without accepting divine qualities of the owning class and its representatives. In you short few messages you successfully applied a) an invitation to self-blame, b) circular reasoning c) an appeal to divine justice dispensed by owning class to the less than perfectly skilled peons. And I would rather call spade a spade - master/slave relationships and coercion as foundation of Economics 101.

I supplied no circular reasoning, that was your invention. I did not appeal to divine justice of an owning class, in fact, I said the exact opposite.

People see what they want to see - the invitation to self-blame is not from me, it's something that is already present in you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post

So you think that the article I cited uses some mental constructs to claim Ph.D. hiring discrimination? Or it has something to do with the fact that each year 50,000 new Ph.D.s are minted in USA alone and there are no 50,000 of academic and R&D jobs waiting for them? Sure there are some academic and R&D jobs and lots of temping for the hopefuls, the rest tries their luck with "the real world" just to find out that their "skills" and education mean nothing and HR perception of them means everything. They are blacklisted and discriminated against much like HS dropouts, and then just to survive some of them must compete with HS dropouts for survival jobs and lose again because low wage employers don't think they belong there. It's a catch 22 from Hell. Surplus Ph.D.s are most definitely not in demand for pure whimsical, psychological reasons. Shouldn't corporations be all over those people because "the skill demand is raising, if anything, it is putting fuel on fire."? Can you explain that paradox without resorting to circular reasoning and divine essence?
The article you cited said NO such thing about Ph.Ds being black listed, treated like HS dropouts, or had to compete with HS dropouts for jobs. Those are ALL your imagination.

It merely said Ph.Ds are considered "overqualified" for some jobs, which we all know already; and is actually a nice problem to have.

Do you know many Ph.Ds??!! Many of them don't work for corporations or the corporations don't want them for many reasons. Many Ph.Ds DON'T want to work for corporations. They would rather go jobless or teach part time in hope of landing that tenure track job than work for private. My cousin got his Ph.D in some physics subject and bumped around for 5 years doing nothing while waiting for a tenure position, all the while countless private businesses were knocking on his door begging him to come work for them. He finally relented and took a high paying job with stock options for a startup, and he was very unhappy about it.

You need to understand Ph.Ds, if these guys just want a job they wouldn't go into the doctoral program in the first place - there are quicker and cheaper route to that end (an MBA, master degree, etc). People who do Ph.Ds by and large LIKES to be in academic and by and large SHUN private corporations. In many fields, going to work a 9-5 job after completing your Ph.D is frowned upon and invites ridicule.

The flip side of the coin is, do the Ph.Ds want to work for corporations??

On to a different coin, how many Ph.Ds are in worthless fields?? A Ph.D in Computer Science is much more valuable than a Ph.D in Art History. Your article (and you) treat them as one and the same. There is logical flaw after logical flaw in your argument.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
You make no sense. Roman slaves had a decent chance (>10%) to obtain freedom (and slaves of their own), chances of a trailer park resident joining top 1% are incalculably lower than that. Does it mean that Rome was not powered by slavery? Sorry, there is no fair play in the master-slave game, I just imagine master caste engaging slaves on equal terms that defies the point of the game. Besides no sane people would choose to play the game anyway. The fact that people are forced into this game is a curse. If this curse is our destiny we have no non dystopian future.

Jesus! You equate a slave obtaining freedom to a trailer park resident joining the top 1%???!!!!!!

Using your analogy, the slave would not only obtain his freedom, but become a wealthy aristocrat. What is the chance of that?!!

I am not going to stop you from insisting you are a slave. If you want to make excuses for yourself, be my guest.

.
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