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Why do wage earners, with no college degrees, little understanding of Corp. accounting practices such as write offs,support tax policies that give huge tax breaks to Corporations? They never ever pay the tax rate that they are supposed to be in. GE, for instance, pays 0 taxes. How is that possible?
Do they truly believe these tax breaks will create jobs for them? Unemployment is the lowest right now.
Corporations have huge cash reserves and can invest them in expansion right now if they want to.
I am not trying to politicize this, merely want a discussion on how this happens where voters are induced to vote against their own interests.
The only college degree that "might" assist in understanding corporate tax structure is something in finance, accounting etc. Other than that, not a single one of them give any value to the world of corporate taxes. Same with wages, being a wage earner or not does not give anyone understanding of corporate taxes. Hell, I have an MBA and work at a financial institution, and I do not have even close to a full understanding of the taxes; it is in fact a complicated thing in which there are teams of people with a range of skills that work on it.
This is why I have to laugh when someone says "we need to see Trump's tax returns", as if they are going to do something with them, or even understand them.
Then why don't you get one and study it before you talk about some trade secret? Do you know how to read fin. statements?
Once again, the federal tax return of every corporation is a trade secret. It is not public information. You have zero idea what General Electric or any other corporation actually pays in income taxes.
Unlike the federal income tax return, the public corporation's financial statements are indeed public information. They are filed with the SEC and are available online on every public corporation's website.
I realize English is not your native language, so I'm not sure if I can make it clearer. So again, one more time:
A) Federal corporate tax returns are not public information. The tax paid by the corporation to Treasury is not public information. You have no idea how much they pay or do not pay.
B) Financial statements of public corporations are public information. They are filed with the SEC. They are available everywhere online.
C) Nowhere in the public financial statements is there any indication of income taxes paid to the IRS/Treasury. Nowhere. It is not listed in the public financial statements.
It is abundantly clear to me that you actually know nothing, and nothing about taxes or legal.. Tax and legal department do not set prices. Economists believe a corporate tax cut mostly benefits shareholders, not the middle class like you, as Trump wants you to think.
I actually have run several business units that are part of corporations and have managed P&L's for the past 15 years. My staff includes various functions including finance. Tax is a cost just like anything else. Corporations are run to make a profit. If our costs go up (including tax), we pass that on to the customer. If our costs are going up, it is also going up for those we compete with, so we are all on an even playing field.
What happens when there is a tax cut? How is the profit handled? Do you pass it on as lower price, increase wages, or raise dividends?
Elsewhere you posted you were an accountant. Did you really mean you're a bookkeeper? Clearly, you're not a CPA.
Tax Books are a required parallel set of records maintained solely to prepare and to support the corporate income tax return.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008
what exactly did you major in? did you go to college?
Look, I can explain this to you all day long, but unfortunately I cannot understand it for you.
Let's review:
A) The Federal corporate income tax return is a trade secret. It is not disclosed. You cannot find it on the web anywhere. You have no idea what any of the entries are on any line on the return. You have no idea what General Electric or any other corporation actually pays in federal income tax. Neither do I. There are a few dozen people who know.
B) Unlike their federal income tax return, public corporations' financial statements are indeed public information. You can find their income statement, balance sheet, and all related documents on the web.
C) There is no relationship between a financial statement's "provision for income taxes" on the financial statement and the actual income tax paid. The former is a calculation based on FASB, GAAP, & SEC rules. The latter is cash actually transferred by wire transfer to the US Treasury. They have NOTHING to do with each other.
I recall seeing General Electric's US Federal Income Tax Return. The then-Vice-President of Tax for GE brought a printout of it with him to that year's annual meeting of the Tax Executive's Institute annual meeting (www.tei.org). He brought it as a visual aid for a panel discussion he was on. His staff wheeled it out onto the stage -- all 25,000-ish sheets of paper. That's not a typo. Twenty-five thousand sheets of paper onto which GE's tax return had been printed. (No, I didn't get to see any line items).
That's how complicated this stuff is.
GE's tax department at that time included something like 1,200 to 1,400 tax attorneys and tax accountants. Many of them are former IRS employees who were experts in their field -- they were the people who had written the regs implementing the tax law, after all. That's a helluva payroll just to plan your tax situation and to fill out the damn paperwork.
Last edited by SportyandMisty; 10-22-2017 at 08:07 PM..
Yes. So many say in interviews with reporters, and also in this very thread (not that I know what their income is), that corporate tax-breaks are good for them because otherwise prices will go up. And they are convinced that there will be more jobs. Neither of this is true, and yet it persists. Corporate tax-break only benefits the holders of capital and shares. It is such a harmful propaganda because it hurts low-wage earners because they get nothing.
I disagree with what you've written above. But let's assume you're right just for argument's sake.
Let's say simplification of corporate taxes and a reduction in corporate tax rates mostly flows through to shareholders. Heck, let's say 100% flows to shareholders.
There are several major classes of shareholders, including the following:
1) Pension plans & retirement plans of both private sector and public sector employees and non-profits. This supports the pensions of your neighborhood firefighters and policemen and teachers. Having money for the pensions plans & retiree healthcare for first responders and teachers is a good thing, isn't it??? Having money for retirees without pensions is a good thing, isn't it???
2) Endowments of organizations such as public and private universities and charitable organizations (e.g., the Red Cross). So, they'd get more money to achieve their mission. This is a good thing, isn't it???
3) Individual savers who are not in the top 0.1%. That is, the 99.9% of us who are not wealthy. If our investments make more money for us, this is a good thing, isn't it???
4) Individual investors who are in the top 0.1%. That is, the wealthy.
I'm going to guess you don't mind #1-3 above. (Tell me if I'm wrong).
I'm going to guess you dislike #4 above. (tell me if I'm wrong).
Now... imagine we raise income taxes on the people in group 4 to make up for any corporation income tax cut. What do you think about this idea?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008
While most voters may not vote for someone just on promises of lower taxes (and if one is a low wage earner it may not have much relevance) they would certainly not vote for someone who calls for increased taxes which will actually benefit them in terms of more services that they need - education, child care, health care, infrastructure.
I want to make sure I'm understanding you above. Correct me if I misunderstand you. You're saying most voters won't vote for someone who pledges to raise taxes to increase services.
Are you saying you disagree with the choice of the voter who would rather have lower taxes so they can spend (or invest) their hard-earned money themselves rather than procure more governmental services?
**************
Taxes are the price we pay to live in a civilized society. No one particularly enjoys paying taxes anymore than they enjoy getting a colonoscopy.
We grit our teeth and do both because at the end of the day they are good for us.
Last edited by SportyandMisty; 10-22-2017 at 08:09 PM..
Back to the actual question...yes people vote against their own interest a lot.
For example low wage blacks vote for Democrats who want to increase immigrant and refuge populations into the country for which they will have to compete with for jobs.
Corporate taxes can only come from customers, employees, or shareholders. The burden will vary from place to place and time to time, but there is no where else to get the funds. Taxing corporations is just taxing people so why would it be preferable to any other tax?
"GE pays 0 taxes" is a false trope of the rabid left that just won't die. It fits the category of "Lies Told Often Enough Become Truth." You have absolutely no idea what GE pays in taxes. None. Zero, zip, nada. You are 100% wrong.
And you know it.
Even though the lie is told over and over again, it is still a lie. It is FAKE NEWS.
Let's be clear: You do not have any idea of what any corporation pays in income tax unless they disclose it, and they do not.
The Federal Corporate Income Tax Return is a trade secret. The It is not public information.
I'm not sure what accounting school you went to, but you need to ask for a refund. All taxes that a company pays is detailed on their financial statements. All US companies that have stock traded on a US stock exchange have to annually publish their financial statements and disclose all the data to the public for free.
As for as the physical tax return being released no one would want to see that even if it were required. GE's return is probably 10,000 + pages and no ones going to analyze 10,000+ pages.
GE did not pay any Federal income tax for at least three years in a row 2009 2010 2011. During the 10 year span of 2006 - 2015 GE's effective tax rate was -1.6 %
"General Electric CEO Jeffrey Immelt takes a similar position in a recent op-ed. Immelt defends the company’s tax record simply by noting that the company “pay[s] billion in taxes.” This is true, but also meaningless for a company with earnings as gigantic as GE’s. In fact, over the past 10 years, GE paid an effective federal income tax rate of -1.6 percent on $58 billion in profits. Over 15 years, the company’s federal income tax rate was just 5.2 percent."
I'm not sure how much more clear this can be. The data that supports the claim that "GE pays no Federal income taxes" is available to everyone for free and was even supplied by GE themselves. i don't know how many more ways we can define "zero"
The only college degree that "might" assist in understanding corporate tax structure is something in finance, accounting etc. Other than that, not a single one of them give any value to the world of corporate taxes. Same with wages, being a wage earner or not does not give anyone understanding of corporate taxes. Hell, I have an MBA and work at a financial institution, and I do not have even close to a full understanding of the taxes; it is in fact a complicated thing in which there are teams of people with a range of skills that work on it.
This is why I have to laugh when someone says "we need to see Trump's tax returns", as if they are going to do something with them, or even understand them.
Trump's tax return will show his income, sources, and the kinds of credits he is taking, and debts. It will show many things that are important. You can laugh all you want.
You don't need a college degree in anything specific to understand ramifications of taxes on personal income, national debt, and the economy . Going to college trains you to see the whole picture. It is a different way of thinking, so yes it is a useful skill. This does not mean those who have not gone to college cannot acquire that kind of thinking on their own if they choose too.
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