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Old 12-02-2017, 11:25 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas
3,631 posts, read 7,666,242 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveklein View Post
Didn't gas spike up to $4/gallon in the pre-recession boom days and then when the economy collapsed, prices dropped to under $2/gallon? That's how I remember it, anyway.
No actually I believe it was just the opposite.

Those $4 days were during the recession or at least before measurable recovery in many areas. Definately not pre-recession.
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Old 12-02-2017, 11:31 PM
 
Location: Ruidoso, NM
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Old 12-03-2017, 08:57 AM
 
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Its bound to go up eventually, as we are on the backside of peak oil.
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Old 12-03-2017, 09:03 AM
 
Location: Morrison, CO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rruff View Post
There's never been much correlation. None as long as I've been alive.
Your chart would bear that out. Do you have an inflation adjusted price of gasoline, by year correlated with GDP growth rate? I am not in the energy sector, but it would seem the more demand for energy due to higher production (plastics, and other products) and transportation would cause an increase in price.
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Old 12-03-2017, 09:19 AM
 
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Pump prices tend to bottom out around Xmas. There was a spike after Hurricane Harvey of course, but most of that hit has been absorbed. With crude prices currently low and pump prices high, refiners are turning out all the gasoline they can. Many places could see pump prices below $2 a gallon by early next year.
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Old 12-03-2017, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Ruidoso, NM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilot1 View Post
Your chart would bear that out. Do you have an inflation adjusted price of gasoline, by year correlated with GDP growth rate? I am not in the energy sector, but it would seem the more demand for energy due to higher production (plastics, and other products) and transportation would cause an increase in price.
The roaring 20s resulted in declining prices. During the GD prices dropped a bit, then rose briefly, then steadily declined until the OPEC stuff in the late 70s (which was a recession period). Then prices declined in the 80s and 90s until they started to take off again in the early 2000s.

Oil prices appear to decline during the most robust economic growth. A recession may result in a brief dip in price, but it quickly rebounds. The upward spikes we've experienced in the last 100 years are not associated with economic growth. It's usually due to shortages caused by manipulation of the market.

I do not expect a substantial increase in oil prices for a long time. The "peak oil" stuff is nonsense.
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Old 12-03-2017, 10:53 AM
 
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Compare what we have to do to pump out and refine stuff today versus the 1950s.
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Old 12-03-2017, 11:13 AM
 
Location: Ruidoso, NM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fifty Percent Off View Post
Compare what we have to do to pump out and refine stuff today versus the 1950s.
The relative difficulty of extraction is the reason prices are as high as they are. Else gas would be ~$1.50/gal. Maybe less.
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Old 12-03-2017, 05:43 PM
 
Location: New York Area
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With a functioning, efficient futures market expected developments would figure in the price. For the out months in futures what you see is what you get.

For widespread shortages and/or prices increases, price controls or other artificial distortions are needed. Otherwise, the spikes will be short-lived in nature and followed by collapses. The 1970's gas shortages were the result of price controls, pure and simple. A bit of history is in order.

From the end of WW II price controls and rationing till around 1970 gasoline, on an inflation adjusted basis trended downward. There were periodic price wars, and frequent trading stamp and merchandise giveaways.

Starting around midway through 1972 (you read that right, not 1973 or 1974) the petroleum market became extremely tight. That summer there were actually a few spot shortages and major oil companies stopped subsidizing the ability of their retailers to match competitors' prices. Later in 1972 they reduced supplies to independent retailers. Since independents had little gasoline to sell, there was actually a small gasoline shortage that spring and summer. During this period, not surprisingly, crude oil prices began to rise.

In the U.S. retail prices didn't increase as much because of the continuation of Phase II wage and price controls after the January 11, 1973 end of those controls on the rest of the economy. All hell broke loose after the January 11, 1973 switch to Phase III controls, which continued controls on petroleum and natural gas, and lifted them on much of the rest of the economy. Around the end of April, if I recall correctly April 21, 1973 the oil companies ceased promotional advertising and the giveaways of stamps, glasses and bowls. The next month the companies began limiting their stations to year-earlier sales levels and in some cases to allocation fractions of around 90% of year earlier levels.

Gasoline shortages became widespread around the end of April 1973 when oil companies, uniquely unable to raise prices or pass along higher overseas prices began restricting dealers to, at first, 100% of year earlier sales, and then on a company by company basis cut to 85% or 90%. Note, this was before the oil embargo. Oil producers and refiners were operating at somewhat over rated capacity, giving a short period of temporary relief in late August and September. Exxon and maybe other companies suspended dealer allocations, allowing resumption of unlimited dealer sales. Prices softened a bit.

Then, the October 1973 Yom Kippur War served as a pretext for exporting countries to announce major production cuts and price increases. This culminated, by December, in an overall quadrupling of crude prices.Many people were impressed back in 1973 and 1974 when costumed ministers gathered gravely in Vienna and the price seemed to jump, and availability at any price seemed to change with their pronouncements. In most cases they were making a virtue out of necessity. At that time OPEC announced a rescinding of some of their cuts. This was dressed up in conciliatory language. In the real world it probably reflected cheating on obeying the cuts. Sound familiar?

In March 1974 the embargo was ended and further production increases were announced. The long lines at the gas pumps magically disappeared. Prices jumped sharply and then by August 1974 began settling back, in some cases to under $0.50 per gallon. Crude prices declined also but not "officially." This again was cheating. By mid-1978 the nominal $12 per barrel (about the same as 1974) was about $9.16 in 1974 dollars, using the deflator (link). The economy, which has been in deep recession in 1974-5 was by now rolling. Iran's revolution then did cause a real and deep overall production cut. Not surprisingly prices surged to around $40 per barrel over 1979-80.

Both the 1973-4 and 1979-80 runup were accompanied by a Rube Goldberg price control and allocation mechanism in the U.S. How do you know when prices are held down by controls? When you see prices ending in figures other than ".9". For example, at the Hess station in Scarsdale Mobil station I remember seeing gasoline at $0.475 in March 1974 (very low due to a glitch in controls which was fixed late that month) to $.568 a gallon and just over $0.60. Then when allocations were removed the price was reduced to $0.579. I stopped following its price when a nearby Merit dropped to $0.529 and Hess in Mamaroneck to $0.539.

When price controls were disbanded by Reagan within 10 days of his taking office, the prices began dropping. Crude went under $10 a barrel in 1986 and then again in 1998-9. Importantly neither were recession years. Even the recent $52 per barrel is equal to under $12 per barrel in 1972 dollars and $13.74 in 1974 dollars. So we are under the prices achieved in 1974 and well under 1979-80 levels.

So ending the history lesson and returning to the thread topic how do we know shortages won't recur on any widespread basis; no price controls. There may be some areas that have a real problem if the refinery supplying their area is down. But it won't last long.
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Old 12-03-2017, 05:56 PM
 
Location: The City of Brotherly Love
1,304 posts, read 1,230,755 times
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I hope it does go up soon, and significantly. I would love to see gas prices pass $5.00/gallon. Maybe that would be the push the federal government needs to significantly invest in mass transit and move away from highway funding. It would also stymie suburban sprawl almost overnight.
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