U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 06-18-2018, 12:52 PM
 
1,754 posts, read 887,427 times
Reputation: 503

Advertisements

Can a group member please explain or link me to an explanation of the current method for federal price supports of agricultural commodities?

I've been browsing through the 1946 – 1952 volume of Truman's autobiographies and I read his too brief explanation of the then Secretary of Agriculture Charles Brannan's proposed price support method. I understood his reasoning for pegging all other of farm those commodities to the price of corn. I currently don't wish to discuss that reasoning.

I'm interested in his goal to provide payments sufficient for smaller sized farms rather than providing for large-scale agricultural “factories”.
How could the federal government administer those payments to prevent large landowners from sub-dividing their acreage in manners as to qualify each sub-division to its full extent of federal benefits? Isn't in comparatively simple to conceal commercial association between individual landowners or individual enterprises leasing or owning farmland?
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-18-2018, 06:45 PM
 
Location: Florida
6,450 posts, read 3,884,826 times
Reputation: 12042
Just shut the whole subsidy thing down. Agriculture is a business and should rise and fall like any other business.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2018, 09:33 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,786 posts, read 15,211,066 times
Reputation: 7960
https://www.downsizinggovernment.org...ture/subsidies


Here's a link for you. As expected, it gets to be pretty complicated. From the link: "The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) runs more than 60 direct and indirect aid programs for farmers...."


There are also programs like the ethanol mandates, which are not directly a subsidy, but are effectively just that.


These appear to be the two main items pertaining to price supports:


Quote:
2. Agriculture Risk Coverage (ARC). This program pays subsidies to farmers if their revenue per acre, or alternately their county's revenue per acre, falls below a benchmark or guaranteed level. Generally, the lower the prices and revenues, the larger the subsidies. The program covers more than 20 crops, from wheat and corn to chickpeas and mustard seed. ARC subsidies fluctuate, but they were $3.7 billion in 2017.[SIZE=2]17[/SIZE]


3. Price Loss Coverage (PLC). This program pays subsidies to farmers on the basis of the national average price of a crop compared to the crop's reference price set by Congress. The larger the fall in a crop's national price below its reference price, the larger the payout to farmers. Since reference prices are set high, payouts are likely. The program covers more than 20 crops, and payments were $3.2 billion in 2017.

So for (2) if the revenue per acre falls below a certain level (set by Congress) the gov't makes up the shortfall. For (3) if the price falls below a certain level, again the gov't pays the farmers to make up the shortfall.


I agree that the subsidies should be eliminated. I have an uncle who is a farmer in the mid-west. He is worth millions. I don't know if he is a 1%er, but he's close. He used to buy his kids (my cousins) a new car each and every year.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2018, 09:35 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,786 posts, read 15,211,066 times
Reputation: 7960
An interesting side note is that (3) is a similar concept to the minimum wage. Low wage workers face the exact same situation as farmers in a low price environment. Wage rates are just the price of labor. In the case of the minimum wage, gov't just sets a fiat minimum level, and makes it illegal to hire beneath that level. According to most economists, this method ends up hurting those whom it's supposed to help (the workers).


In the case of farm price supports, the market price is allowed to float up and down. But if it goes below the minimum, as decreed by gov't, the taxpayer makes up the difference to the farmers. This does positively help those whom it intends to help (the farmers). If gov't just set a fiat minimum, with no subsidy, the farmers would lose sales if the price were allowed to drop to the minimum level, but no more.


The difference is that the minimum wage is a sham proposal from politicos who are either ignorant of economics or dishonest. The farm price supports are designed by a well-organized farm lobby to positively help their constituents, namely the farmers.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-23-2019, 06:59 AM
 
1,754 posts, read 887,427 times
Reputation: 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
Truman's and Brannan's proposal continues to rattle around and return to my mind. I don't wish now to discuss the justification for agricultural price supports, but rather how we can reduce their cost to the federal budget. It's a question that may be also applicable to federal programs other than agriculture.

There's legal and public accounting differences and restrictions upon the common form of corporations, or small corporations, (i.e. "C" or "S" Corps), and other forms of partnerships or single owner commercial entities.

It had occurred to me that at least part of my question's solution might be to simply prohibit those federal payments for crops derived from land or crops that are even partially owned or controlled by any "C corp or entity that's not a legal U.S. resident, or recognized by our IRS as a dependent of an individual income taxpayer.

Can any of this group's members suggest why this concept would not be worthy of consideration?
I'm a city guy and you'll have to walk me gently through any agricultural terms or concepts.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-23-2019, 07:09 AM
 
Location: Guadalajara, MX
8,012 posts, read 3,842,537 times
Reputation: 15114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
I'm a city guy and you'll have to walk me gently through any agricultural terms or concepts.
I'm a city guy too, and can't wrap my head around the way folks in India casually walk right past/around the huge cows with horns that block the sidewalks, I'm always executing intricate paths risking getting hit by a truck on the street instead of passing within five meters of any horn or hoof.

Sorry, back to corn.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-23-2019, 07:14 AM
 
1,754 posts, read 887,427 times
Reputation: 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
... The difference [between commodity price supports and the minimum wage rate] is that the minimum wage is a sham proposal from politicos who are either ignorant of economics or dishonest. The farm price supports are designed by a well-organized farm lobby to positively help their constituents, namely the farmers.
Wutitiz:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
The essence of personal and political opposition to the FMW rate.

The federal minimum wage, (FMW) rate is of net social and economic benefit to our nation. It has never been among the major causes of the U.S. Dollar’s inflation; on the contrary it’s certainly among inflations’ victims.
No individuals are poorer and no enterprises suffers any competitive disadvantage to any USA enterprises due to the FMW rate.

[there’s no doubt that USA’s higher wage rates are a cause of our products’ price disadvantages in comparison to products from lower wage nations; but although the elimination of our FMW rate laws would be greatly detrimental to our nation’s net social and economic wellbeing, eliminating it would accomplish extremely little to remedy our products’ global price disadvantages].

I suppose a majority of USA’s population, (significantly more than a 10% plurality) to some extent approve of federal minimum rate’s existence. There are few among wealthy or competent people that are opposed to the federal minimum rate.

An overwhelming proportions of minimum rate opponents lack self-esteem. They need whatever affirmation of their own worth that they can derive by being able to look down upon people experiencing lesser financial conditions. They cannot acknowledge or admit to themselves their fears of improving the financial conditions of others would consequentially reduce their own social status.

That’s the essence of personal and political opposition to the FMW rate.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-23-2019, 08:26 AM
 
4,914 posts, read 3,891,723 times
Reputation: 10481
Sort of vaguely related, we have some agricultural products like sugar that would not be grown in the US if imported sugar did not have a high tariff on it. Catch 22. Pay more for everything containing sugar or allow ourselves to become totally dependent upon foreign produced sugar.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2020, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top