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Again what will you do when your country votes differently than you?
The problem with your supposition is that the nature of work will be different as each production center is separate from the next rather than being part of a larger group.
Work can be produced alone, or it can be started with others. Furthermore worker management does not extend beyond production methods, and the need to increase profits to stay afloat will never be a factor.
If you actually want a free society, you must get over your desperate love for authoritarian rule and allow people to participate voluntarily, not through force.
If people want to obey the will of one man, they’re welcome to, but it cannot be forced by some state-corporate power structure that derives its authority by force.
My post was about you not respecting others' viewpoints and life experiences.
Are you really in the US? Sometimes it seems like you're discussing gulags in Siberia.
My post was about you not respecting others' viewpoints and life experiences.
Are you really in the US? Sometimes it seems like you're discussing gulags in Siberia.
I respect others views, but there are universal facts of personal operation and control of capital that exists even in a society where ‘private’ property is protected by law. That’s not an opinion, and in order to progress the conversation, basic facts need to be established.
If you want the logic behind this factual claim, you can read my explanation here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324
I believe if you look at the history of socialism and capitalism in the world, and in general the history of politics since after the Neolithic period, you’ll see a great degree of control concentrated towards people who do not have the individual capacity to exert said power over the wider populace.
These powers change hands of course, the senate in Rome, the imperial family in China, feudal land lords, kings, captains of industry in the 19th century, etc.
And yet the basis of all these people’s power though relies on the same understanding of invisible control, or control through influence rather than direct force.
While many do claim these persons of power will naturally arise or are even necessary for the organization of human life I see evidence to the contrary. Most of these same functions people talk about being handled by the state or the private industry are in practice handled in the local level where these models are directly implemented.
In mutual aid: A Factor of evolution by peter Kropotkin he discusses many of the factors that natural selection functions by. Most often, both in the human and animal kingdom, these functions awarded not the strongest or smartest individuals, but the ones that excelled at cooperation. Obviously there were differences in abilities within the group and these differences created different roles for each member, but the main factor was the will to understand that mutual benefits were the only way to overcome the challenges of competing species and the environment.
In human kind, in medieval communes (which there were many), people did function out of self desire, but these desires were one of survival and prosperity to a wider extent. To accomplish this the people did agree to some level of order, but this cooperation with the heads of the commune was not one of servitude, but one of role taking. Obviously selfishness exists in all people to varying degree, but even the most selfish did not feel the need to take all power for themselves, for if that were to happen, they would suffer as well. The voluntary agreement to organize did not require some external reward, because production had direct affects. Furthermore the more that were feed, the more who could work, and the more that was produced for everyone.
Going back to power models I mentioned in my previous paragraph, while the power centers did influence the output of a society, the sole production was still handled locally. These immediate powers were the only ones that were present. A manager at a factory could have a badge on him that says he is representative of some larger company, or a guard in a town could wear the sigil of a king to visualize control by said king, but neither of these representatives were themselves the power they claimed to represent. From this we can understand that the actual power (the enforcement of will) is not being distributed down by some incredible power, but is directly being enforced by a local entity (manager, city guards, police department, etc.) who has the voluntary agreement of the actual workforce or civilian population to follow the set of parameters. It is significant to observe this distinction because then we can understand that these presumed power centers are not all that powerful themselves; if that is the case then the order they bring is not inherent to them, in fact there power is in practice nothing but voluntary (whether the subjects know it or not) agreement by the subjects to follow an agreed set of rules. Because the central powers can seem direct in their ability to exert force, this may force some level of subservience, but it is nonetheless what seems to be true.
Now, these power structures still exist. We just understand that they are not being derived from the top. If such a universal accord of structure and organization is being practiced what creates its structure if not central power? I believe, and I think there is evidence to suggest this, that the practical formation of these structures come from networking. All the separate institutions that make up a kingdom, an empire, a corporation, a republic, or anything else comes from the horizontal power sharing that all these separate institutions practice. Even if a police department in one county in the US (for example) is separate from another federal police department on the other side of the country, they both, even if through 3rd party chains or different organizations, connect and share information and operate based on some level of coordination. These intrinsic networks do build the presence of a great singular body (the state), but the input of all this power is created at each decentralized part.
The same applies with corporate structures, different work places all produce separately but they communicate and form this appearance of an individual body.
So for us to assume that each locality needs some organized force to run it, we would have to assume they derive organization from a singular force, when in actuality it is a multitude of forces. For each community, the needs are different, and as such the practice of power will be different. That being said if we were to acknowledge the purpose of checks and balances, we can find the same thing practicing in society. While each community is connected with the next into a web of communities, they are each affected, both in limitations and enhancements by the acts of the others. That would mean the resources that one would need that could affect themselves negatively would be educated and supported by the infrastructure of the others. If we were to take away the central force that redistributes the collective output of all these different networks (corporate shareholders, state leaders, etc.) then the usage of what they produce can be better acclimated to their individual circumstances. Further democratic forces and the inertia of natural law (personal property/property by usage) will help limit the power accumulation of one person. So different people can achieve different levels of control or success but they would be limited by both how much they can own due to operation limitations (one person cannot operate a huge swath of land by themselves), and they would be limited by democratic means (workers control their own labor so one person can’t trade or commodities labor with out consent, and the mass production of goods can’t be monopolized by one person or a small group of people).
Finally as to what you claimed about natural greed or ineffency; to the latter I believed I answered that question do to the reality that current day functions are controlled locally and different roles to different people are offered on the basis of mutual benefit. Both in the communes of medieval Europe and the smaller government departments across the country. I’ll also add that these forms of democratic and community checks and balances is also why the CNT in Catalonia was able to establish a successful anarcho-syndicalist state despite the fact that many of the peasant farmers and factory workers were illiterate; there own authority on the subject was not the basis of how society was run, a system of networks based Mutual Aid created different levels of management that were reliant on the masses to understand the details of every small function. To the former claim about greed, I go back to Kropotkin; when you don’t have the distribution of output controlled by some central force, you allow production to be based on the needs of the community. In such cases mutual Aid is the selfish act that requires people to need to produce enough for the community (and for themselves). The improvement over old tribal functions that allowed this in ancient times is the modern technological network and infrastructure that makes up States and large corporations remains, and the benefits the provide, from supply chains to mass production and distribution remain, only this time they are handled in different scales based on the situation and the output being distributed voluntarily by the decentralized power centers involved.
In all these cases I think this is why the corruption you see in communist countries and the greed you see in capitalist countries are more products of what is allowed to happen by the environment. If corruption or stock crashes had small outwards affects on society, then they would be much easier to fix. The reason they aren’t is that while the network is there to respond, the power output is so centralized to the needs of one source, all these different production areas are affected. We have reached a level in communication, technological advancement, and human education that the cooperative forces of the pass along with the wealth and power standards of the modern era can be combined to great affects.
But even then, a major reason why you don’t see large scale reform or discussion towards these forms of economics and politics (though they are happening) goes back to my first paragraph. All these different power models through our time, while different, allowed for practice of power beyond reason. These same forces today don’t wish to allow the true freedoms humans are capable of, because they can’t, because they know if they do they would have no reason to exist.
They're free to buy as much stock as they want in any public company. If they work for a private company, they're free to quit and start their own business and take on all the risk that entails.
If none of that is palatable to them, they're free to immigrate to the country that better fits their social, political and economic philosophies.
The thing is, the executives are often simply given large blocks of stock.
Many of the rank and file aren't paid enough to make significant stock purchases, if they are even able to keep their jobs.
Seems like things could be a little fairer to the Little Man.
The thing is, the executives are often simply given large blocks of stock.
Many of the rank and file aren't paid enough to make significant stock purchases, if they are even able to keep their jobs.
Seems like things could be a little fairer to the Little Man.
Maybe the "Little Man" could educate himself (Pro-tip: It's free) so that he can actually contribute something to the World more than just menial labor and thus be of more value. That would be "fair" to me.
The thing is, the executives are often simply given large blocks of stock.
Many of the rank and file aren't paid enough to make significant stock purchases, if they are even able to keep their jobs.
Seems like things could be a little fairer to the Little Man.
Very true, but most people on this thread don’t care about the truth, they write off facts that don’t agree with their preconceived notions as ‘opinions’.
The thing is, I've been presenting facts to back my arguments,...
You gave us four defunct examples.
That's hardly factual.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324
1. The base needs of a society aren't the focus of private corporations
Yes, they are.
The Kroger Company provides you with a wide variety of foods and food-stuffs grown locally, across the US and around the world, plus a wide variety of non-food items.
And they provide that to you in one convenient location, so that you don't have to waste your very valuable time and additional money driving around to several different locations scattered across a city.
There are also generalized and specialized private companies that provide clothing, apparel and accessories in a wide variety of styles, colors and price ranges.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324
2. It means expanding markets are not formed to meet more demands, but build more demand for new supply
You've already been schooled on that.
The Laws of Business are simple:
1) You must provide a product or service that is in Demand; and
2) You must offer the product or service at the most competitive price; and
3) Your product or service must be of the highest quality relative to price.
Fail any one of those three, and you fail. Period.
All businesses offer a product or service that is in Demand by consumers. No business can survive unless Demand exists. There is no Demand for buggy-whips or manual washing machines or 8-Track Tape Players, so those products are no longer offered.
There is still Demand for chimney-sweeps, but Demand has dwindled significantly over the last several decades due to changes in building designs and the increased use of HVAC systems that operate cleaner.
Architectural firms exist because there is Demand for architectural drawings, diagrams and schematics.
The architectural firm did not create Demand, it already existed. Whether such a business survives is dependent upon its ability to market it services at competitive prices locally, regionally, country-wide and globally, and also its ability to produce a quality product and provide a quality service relative to its price.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324
3. That's not true. Even if they are consumed and GDP increases, this consumption falls into excess materialism for which the production of these goods/services could have been committed to actual necessary needs of society that are lacking (food, water, shelter, and anything that enhances their main functions)
"Excess materialism" is subjective. You cannot define it objectively in no uncertain terms.
All Americans have access to food, water, shelter and anything that enhances their "main functions."
If they do not have access, then it is the individual's own doing that has created a bar to prevent themselves from having access.
Tuition at Cincinnati State is only $158.64 per credit hour. That's $1,900 per semester and anything over 12 hours is in gratuit, so you can take 15 to 18 hours for the price of 12 hours.
Everyone in poverty qualifies for a $5,600 Pell Grant and a $1,500 Ohio Educational Grant.
That pays for tuition and leaves them with almost $3,300 a year to cover books and other fees, and even money left over to make car payments or pay rent or car insurance or buy food.
If those people refuse to apply for a Pell Grant, refuse to apply for an Ohio Education Grant and refuse to enroll in the college to improve their financial, professional or personal positions, that is not the fault of corporations or any non-corporate businesses -- which out-number corporations 97% to 3% -- and there's nothing you or I or anyone else can do about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324
4. At a much higher cost than would be necessary compared to production capacities our economic institutions are capable of. And even then not always, the demand base must be profitable for these somebodies to come and fulfill their demand.
That's because no business can operate indefinitely without a profit.
Profits are absolutely necessary, but then you've never run a business and wouldn't know how to run one.
Profits allow companies of all kinds, publicly-traded corporations, which are only 3% of all US business, and the other 97% of businesses, which are S-Corps, general partnerships, limited partnerships, limited liability partnerships and limited liability companies to put themselves in a financial position to renegotiate their debt, pay off their debt, purchase new Capital, upgrade existing Capital, conduct research and development of new products and new services, refine manufacturing methods, increase employee wages and benefits, suffer market shocks, attract new investors, and solely in the case of publicly-traded corporations, to purchase their own stocks to bar and prevent a hostile takeover, leveraged buy-out, or forced merger or acquisition.
Demand-pull Inflation exists to prevent to the depletion, over-use or over-consumption of resources, goods and services.
You have two options: Stop consuming, or increase Supply to meet Demand.
The problem with increasing Supply is sometimes you cannot. Sometimes, the rate of increase of Supply is still less than the rate of increase of Demand, so prices still rise.
And sometimes, it costs too much to increase Supply.
If producing additional products or providing additional services results in a net loss, then you have to wait until Demand-pull Inflation drives the price even higher, so that you can provide products or services at break-even.
But operating at break-even is often just as unsustainable as operating at a loss, so you have to wait until Demand-pull Inflation drives prices even higher so that you can have a profit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324
Economics isn’t a science, and the application of market rules being supply/demand is pure propaganda.
And yet areas of the US were there is a shortage of housing Supply and high Demand results in rising prices for homes and rental property, while areas of the US were housing Supply matches Demand or is slightly greater than Demand, homes and rental property are cheaper.
And when there are hurricanes and cold weather that reduces the orange crop, the price of oranges and everything related to oranges, like orange juice rises.
What's he going to do when he's part of his utopian worker union or board and everyone votes differently than him? That's a big flaw in the whole cooperation concept when you have a person that can't see others' points of view or value their real life experience.
Naw, that would be a democracy. He is dreaming of a a communist utopia like Stalin dreamed of.
The Kroger Company provides you with a wide variety of foods and food-stuffs grown locally, across the US and around the world, plus a wide variety of non-food items.
And they provide that to you in one convenient location, so that you don't have to waste your very valuable time and additional money driving around to several different locations scattered across a city.
There are also generalized and specialized private companies that provide clothing, apparel and accessories in a wide variety of styles, colors and price ranges.
You've already been schooled on that.
The Laws of Business are simple:
1) You must provide a product or service that is in Demand; and
2) You must offer the product or service at the most competitive price; and
3) Your product or service must be of the highest quality relative to price.
Fail any one of those three, and you fail. Period.
All businesses offer a product or service that is in Demand by consumers. No business can survive unless Demand exists. There is no Demand for buggy-whips or manual washing machines or 8-Track Tape Players, so those products are no longer offered.
There is still Demand for chimney-sweeps, but Demand has dwindled significantly over the last several decades due to changes in building designs and the increased use of HVAC systems that operate cleaner.
Architectural firms exist because there is Demand for architectural drawings, diagrams and schematics.
The architectural firm did not create Demand, it already existed. Whether such a business survives is dependent upon its ability to market it services at competitive prices locally, regionally, country-wide and globally, and also its ability to produce a quality product and provide a quality service relative to its price.
"Excess materialism" is subjective. You cannot define it objectively in no uncertain terms.
All Americans have access to food, water, shelter and anything that enhances their "main functions."
If they do not have access, then it is the individual's own doing that has created a bar to prevent themselves from having access.
Tuition at Cincinnati State is only $158.64 per credit hour. That's $1,900 per semester and anything over 12 hours is in gratuit, so you can take 15 to 18 hours for the price of 12 hours.
Everyone in poverty qualifies for a $5,600 Pell Grant and a $1,500 Ohio Educational Grant.
That pays for tuition and leaves them with almost $3,300 a year to cover books and other fees, and even money left over to make car payments or pay rent or car insurance or buy food.
If those people refuse to apply for a Pell Grant, refuse to apply for an Ohio Education Grant and refuse to enroll in the college to improve their financial, professional or personal positions, that is not the fault of corporations or any non-corporate businesses -- which out-number corporations 97% to 3% -- and there's nothing you or I or anyone else can do about it.
That's because no business can operate indefinitely without a profit.
Profits are absolutely necessary, but then you've never run a business and wouldn't know how to run one.
Profits allow companies of all kinds, publicly-traded corporations, which are only 3% of all US business, and the other 97% of businesses, which are S-Corps, general partnerships, limited partnerships, limited liability partnerships and limited liability companies to put themselves in a financial position to renegotiate their debt, pay off their debt, purchase new Capital, upgrade existing Capital, conduct research and development of new products and new services, refine manufacturing methods, increase employee wages and benefits, suffer market shocks, attract new investors, and solely in the case of publicly-traded corporations, to purchase their own stocks to bar and prevent a hostile takeover, leveraged buy-out, or forced merger or acquisition.
Demand-pull Inflation exists to prevent to the depletion, over-use or over-consumption of resources, goods and services.
You have two options: Stop consuming, or increase Supply to meet Demand.
The problem with increasing Supply is sometimes you cannot. Sometimes, the rate of increase of Supply is still less than the rate of increase of Demand, so prices still rise.
And sometimes, it costs too much to increase Supply.
If producing additional products or providing additional services results in a net loss, then you have to wait until Demand-pull Inflation drives the price even higher, so that you can provide products or services at break-even.
But operating at break-even is often just as unsustainable as operating at a loss, so you have to wait until Demand-pull Inflation drives prices even higher so that you can have a profit.
And yet areas of the US were there is a shortage of housing Supply and high Demand results in rising prices for homes and rental property, while areas of the US were housing Supply matches Demand or is slightly greater than Demand, homes and rental property are cheaper.
And when there are hurricanes and cold weather that reduces the orange crop, the price of oranges and everything related to oranges, like orange juice rises.
I don't care what Capitalist claim the process should be like, in practice their are too many external factors and economic realities for corporations to follow these 'laws'. In practice the board rooms only goal is to increase profits in the short or long term.
Everything else you wrote is based on the false assumption that supply/demand rules are strictly integrated with a market system. They're not.
The idea that I'm a Stalinist is as laughable as it is pathetic.
You should try reading that again, since I typed nothing of the sort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo302
Naw, that would be a democracy. He is dreaming of a a communist utopia like Stalin dreamed of.
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