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But for the majority that rely on the private industry for wages they work and live where the corporation decides to invest.
That is not freedom, that is control.
No, it is an inability on your part to clearly articulate and demonstrate to your employer that you can work remotely.
And, apparently, you don't understand the difference between addressing someone face-to-face and addressing them over a telephone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324
Everyone had job security, there was no corporate competition, and all could feed their families/help one another. As they had less trading partners, they failed, no reason otherwise.
They had nothing.
You were never there, so you couldn't possibly know what the hell you're talking about.
1984 was the first year East Germans could choose the color of their car. They had a choice of four colors only, and black and white colors were not allowed.
You bought the car first, before you ever drove it, meaning you paid every month for 2 or 3 years and after you made the final payment on the car, you got a post-card in the mail telling you where to pick up your car.
You never saw the massive lines for goods.
They often ran out of food, like bread, mid-month.
As word spread, massive lines formed as people waited to get the last of the food for the month.
If you were too far back in line and didn't get any, then you did without for the rest of the month.
Their diet was incredibly poor.
The governments only grew cash-crops that fetched a high price on the global market.
A diet of wheat, sugar beets and turnips is hardly interesting and makes for uninviting and limited cuisine.
I was a NATO observer on Druzba '86. It was a Warsaw Pact military exercise that took place mostly in Hungaria and Czechoslovakia.
I traded my cassette player and cassettes to the Soviet army officers I was with.
They had never seen cassettes and didn't know what they were.
The whole world, except the East Bloc, is using cassette music tapes.
The East Bloc is still stuck on LPs. I think Poland and East Germany had 8-track tapes.
I worked in the military attache's office at US Embassy Mission Bucharest in Romania, and they didn't have cassettes, either. Only LPs.
I traded all of my Levi blue jeans to the Soviet army officers, too, because they didn't have denim jeans in the Soviet Union.
Even now, in Romania, women still wash clothes in the bathtub by hand, because washers and dryers are very limited and expensive. When I bought my house in Romania in 2000, everyone washed clothes in the bathtub or sink, because nobody had washers or dryers.
Tens of thousands of people in Hungaria, the Czech and Slovak Republics and Romania didn't have electricity.
The village where my house is got electricity in 2008. I put in indoor plumbing when I bought the place, but many people don't have indoor plumbing, and for many that do, you still have to go outside, because the toilet, sink and bathtub are in a separate building not connected to the house. I built a bathroom in the house and use the outdoor building for my chickens and geese now.
The Standard of Living for people in the East Bloc was on a par with America in the 1890s. That was true then and for Millions it still is.
The reason the East Bloc failed is because it couldn't produce anything. If you don't produce anything, you really can't engage in global trade.
It's a known fact that food production decreased after farms were collectivized.
The decrease in food production was the primary causal factor of famine in Ukraine in which Millions died of starvation.
Stalin's choice was feed the Ukrainians at the expense of everyone else, meaning everyone else gets less food, and they had barely any food as it is, or let the Ukrainians starve.
Millions were going to die. So, you have Millions of Russians, White Russians, Turks, Mongols, Georgians, Ossetians, Moldovans, Ukranians and others die, or just Ukrainians.
Not a hard choice for Stalin.
Your efforts to emulate Stalin are noteworthy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324
Read my post again. It has absolutely nothing to do with what you're saying.
Location: Formerly Pleasanton Ca, now in Marietta Ga
10,351 posts, read 8,572,211 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324
Your lies are becoming more amusing with each post.
How would you know? I haven't posted in the last 5 seconds so you wouldn't remember anyways-goldfish memory.
Everyone else has constantly called you out multiple times for not answering questions and sidestepping points made to a point your replies are now called winterfall shuffles.
How would you know? I haven't posted in the last 5 seconds so you wouldn't remember anyways-goldfish memory.
Everyone else has constantly called you out multiple times for not answering questions and sidestepping points made to a point your replies are now called winterfall shuffles.
I literally answered the question you were responding to a second time, go back and read it.
No, it is an inability on your part to clearly articulate and demonstrate to your employer that you can work remotely.
And, apparently, you don't understand the difference between addressing someone face-to-face and addressing them over a telephone.
They had nothing.
You were never there, so you couldn't possibly know what the hell you're talking about.
1984 was the first year East Germans could choose the color of their car. They had a choice of four colors only, and black and white colors were not allowed.
You bought the car first, before you ever drove it, meaning you paid every month for 2 or 3 years and after you made the final payment on the car, you got a post-card in the mail telling you where to pick up your car.
You never saw the massive lines for goods.
They often ran out of food, like bread, mid-month.
As word spread, massive lines formed as people waited to get the last of the food for the month.
If you were too far back in line and didn't get any, then you did without for the rest of the month.
Their diet was incredibly poor.
The governments only grew cash-crops that fetched a high price on the global market.
A diet of wheat, sugar beets and turnips is hardly interesting and makes for uninviting and limited cuisine.
I was a NATO observer on Druzba '86. It was a Warsaw Pact military exercise that took place mostly in Hungaria and Czechoslovakia.
I traded my cassette player and cassettes to the Soviet army officers I was with.
They had never seen cassettes and didn't know what they were.
The whole world, except the East Bloc, is using cassette music tapes.
The East Bloc is still stuck on LPs. I think Poland and East Germany had 8-track tapes.
I worked in the military attache's office at US Embassy Mission Bucharest in Romania, and they didn't have cassettes, either. Only LPs.
I traded all of my Levi blue jeans to the Soviet army officers, too, because they didn't have denim jeans in the Soviet Union.
Even now, in Romania, women still wash clothes in the bathtub by hand, because washers and dryers are very limited and expensive. When I bought my house in Romania in 2000, everyone washed clothes in the bathtub or sink, because nobody had washers or dryers.
Tens of thousands of people in Hungaria, the Czech and Slovak Republics and Romania didn't have electricity.
The village where my house is got electricity in 2008. I put in indoor plumbing when I bought the place, but many people don't have indoor plumbing, and for many that do, you still have to go outside, because the toilet, sink and bathtub are in a separate building not connected to the house. I built a bathroom in the house and use the outdoor building for my chickens and geese now.
The Standard of Living for people in the East Bloc was on a par with America in the 1890s. That was true then and for Millions it still is.
The reason the East Bloc failed is because it couldn't produce anything. If you don't produce anything, you really can't engage in global trade.
It's a known fact that food production decreased after farms were collectivized.
The decrease in food production was the primary causal factor of famine in Ukraine in which Millions died of starvation.
Stalin's choice was feed the Ukrainians at the expense of everyone else, meaning everyone else gets less food, and they had barely any food as it is, or let the Ukrainians starve.
Millions were going to die. So, you have Millions of Russians, White Russians, Turks, Mongols, Georgians, Ossetians, Moldovans, Ukranians and others die, or just Ukrainians.
Not a hard choice for Stalin.
Your efforts to emulate Stalin are noteworthy.
More Winterfall Shuffle.
You cannot see friend, you are blinded and instead choose to rant on subjects not pertaining to the original discussion.
Is eastern Europe rich now that it has welcomed private capitalist in? If no then you must wonder why eastern Europe is so poor.
In fact it has been for many centuries in comparison to the west, and after WW2 they faced the brunt of the destruction. When East and West was split, the Soviets were not comparable to the wealth of the US, and as such they formed a poorer trading bloc.
Include division between Asian communist states (which too were incredible poor at the time) and their is limited room to grow. Had more states been Marxist modeled, they would have more to trade.
And had the Soviets not needed to spend a third of their GDP on military research, they could have funded a decent society. Come the 80s which you claim knowledge on as Reagan heightened the competition to where the poorer Soviets struggled to compete, you saw the limited trade offered to the eastern bloc deprecate even more.
And then you ignore the fact that the more totalitarian states like Poland and Romania have different perspectives from the Yugoslav states, East Germany, etc. Today the majority of all those populations wish things were like they were back then. And that is regardless of market choice as security and the freedom that security offered was better than just greater consumer choice (in no way a model to measure human happiness).
But you still blind yourself, you ignore what I am saying, and you think you know what I support. You confuse totalitarian atrocities with economic models, and you forget that the famines you speak of in Ukraine were regular in European colonies at the time of their relative industrialization. Forced industrialization was a brutal method, especially at the speed the Soviets accomplished it.
Which brings me to my main point, this was never a system I supported. In fact planned economies are the most efficient, not something I rank in high regard. The US is a planned economy, and I'm not just talking about state intervention or R&D spending by the public sector and universities.
I'm talking about the private industry. And its interesting that you bring up the late 19th century in America, because that was when the changed happened. US industries competed with each-other for wage earners, and that competition killed profits. It was so disastrous US corporations and businesses said if it continued it would crash the economy. Instead they turned to cooperation and price planning. That is why every major business have price management, so they can set a profit goal, and plan for future investments by having an assured profit margin. This is economic planning, and companies learned long ago that if they submit to the rule of the markets all business would die:
But this is the most significant point of all, this system I am describing is something you should support, not me. There is a reason Chile with their nationalized Copper industry is the most successful capitalist nation in Latin America. Economic Planning is the basis of wealth creation, which you love profusely because of your own corrupted morals.
You reject spiritual and historic realities for Market choice as the greatness of humanity. Instead of creating a system that does not punish poverty, you promote institutions that reward greed and theft (a word that you will never understand the meaning to).
And state planning is the most efficient form of capitalism, it is by far the greatest tool the US has, greater than the planning of exxonmobile, Apple, etc. combined. You regard a political system (authoritarianism) like in Venezuela and Romania (eastern bloc) and ignore their differentiation to an economic system.
Your only fear is that if people had democratic control of that government planning, they may look to utilize wealth for their own security and leasiure rather than consumption. And without marketing propaganda that may be so, which is against your broken moral system.
And you are so blind to not see that these forms of wealth organization and planning are not what I support in totality, in fact that is why I am against the Soviet System and the Cuban system not for. But you don't want to see reality, you only want to dictate it from your own partial knowledge.
Nope. Jobs are created to provide for people. Take away the corporate structure and that is what remains.
The rich can leave, but the physical capital that provides production in this country remains.
The US has far fewer jobs requiring capital equipment now than in the past.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324
I'll let him answer your first question. But as to your second, why should people move places to work for a corporate machine.
Why does our economic system force them to leave the place they were born and raised to survive?
Circumstances change. My ancestors landed in North America in Delaware, then moved to Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Tennessee, Alabama, back to Tennessee, then to Texas, where we've pretty much stayed. Nothing corporate made them move, they moved in search of better land and more opportunity. My paternal grandfather quit farming to work in the oil fields of Southeast Texas because he wanted a job that paid him for the work he did, and wasn't subject to the vagaries of weather. That's how people get ahead in many cases, moving to where the work is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324
A Corporation is not the be all end all of economics, it is a system of organization.
If cooperatives and small companies could own the land and capital around them to provide for themselves without multinational competition, this reality you speak of wouldn't have to be so.
But as that is the cause of this system of operation, I think we both can agree it is deeply flawed.
Cooperatives and small companies do just what you describe, large companies operate in many places. But, if a small company fails due to bad management, failure to adapt to changing circumstances, or to competition, then the local jobs may go away. For people working in resource extraction, the resources play out, and the jobs move to teh next area. There's nothing that can be done to prevent that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324
It worked in the eastern bloc.
Outside of Romania and Poland which had totalitarian governments, the majority of the population in eastern bloc states want to go back.
Everyone had job security, there was no corporate competition, and all could feed their families/help one another. As they had less trading partners, they failed, no reason otherwise.
If the US was isolated from the global market, our economy would collapse as well. Most importantly, eastern states had less to work with from the get go as they were historically poorer than the west, especially after WW2.
I don't support that system, as I don't want structured employment, but it works.
None of my colleagues in Hungary, the Czech Republic, or Romania want to go back at all. The thought of returning to a planned economy scares the crap out of them. The Soviet bloc countries failed because their economies were not based on reality. Most of the Soviet enterprises actually subtracted value from their inputs, which is not sustainable at all.
The US has far fewer jobs requiring capital equipment now than in the past.
So?
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRM20
Circumstances change. My ancestors landed in North America in Delaware, then moved to Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Tennessee, Alabama, back to Tennessee, then to Texas, where we've pretty much stayed. Nothing corporate made them move, they moved in search of better land and more opportunity. My paternal grandfather quit farming to work in the oil fields of Southeast Texas because he wanted a job that paid him for the work he did, and wasn't subject to the vagaries of weather. That's how people get ahead in many cases, moving to where the work is.
That is different, wanting to move is one thing. Forcing yourself to move to pay off debt, provide for children, and stay out of poverty is another. That doesn't mean places can't offer different living standards, but in communities with wealth and capital, work and freedom should exist for all. Even personal work like having a garden farm and building your own house.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRM20
Cooperatives and small companies do just what you describe, large companies operate in many places. But, if a small company fails due to bad management, failure to adapt to changing circumstances, or to competition, then the local jobs may go away. For people working in resource extraction, the resources play out, and the jobs move to teh next area. There's nothing that can be done to prevent that.
Ah, the myth of competition and survival. Producing wealth should not be a game of survival.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRM20
None of my colleagues in Hungary, the Czech Republic, or Romania want to go back at all. The thought of returning to a planned economy scares the crap out of them. The Soviet bloc countries failed because their economies were not based on reality. Most of the Soviet enterprises actually subtracted value from their inputs, which is not sustainable at all.
My ability to retire would suffer significantly. I'd need to work until I die.
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