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But if a community owned its own capital through cooperative ownership, they would choose to invest it by the needs of the locality democratically;
And furthermore cost restrictions set by government and private ownershers would no longer be intrusive allowing families, churches, and other such institutions to provide care for the elderly.
What if I want to wander the country with my car and trailer in retirement? Absent the returns from my investmetns, I would be stuck where I am, with no hope of going anywhere else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324
I’m fine tying the 90% CGT to inflation so value is not loss.
My point is capital ownership should not equate to a growth or shrinkage in wealth (when at all possible).
Let's say I have some cash, and Bill Gates needs some money to finish his great new product. I trade some cash for a piece of Bill's company, and it becomes a great success. According to your theory, I don't deserve any return on my capital, even though it made great things possible. That's lazy thinking, and unrealistic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324
Generating revenue is not the question, in fact it doesn’t have to be a factor.
If communities owned the capital they used (electric systems, infrastructure, etc.) that capital could be used and maintained by the community democratically allowing retirees to utilize these infrastructures without having to worry about property taxes, or any charges on public service.
And it would free up health institutions, families, and religious institutions to provide support for the elderly.
There still has to be a means to trade my labor for a medium that I can use to get stuff from other parts of the economy. We can't all live in little cooperatives.
It is only a tax on profits (so not total sale value).
I'm not supporting it from a tax revenue stand point, I don't care about that, but it would lower economic activity in the corporate sector and dissuade people from investing (and inflating) the stock market.
The materialistic profit motive that has driven our economy has built an authoritarian state where money buys you freedom, and the more money you have, the more freedom you have as well.
To create a freer society it must be more egalitarian and not based on increasing economic activity.
Also in the long run it will lower government revenues and slow imperialistic ambitions abroad.
Furthermore people will be happier not trying to become millionaires and building a life rather than making a living.
Nah, I'd rather have a 90% death tax if that's what you're trying to accomplish. At least low income and capital gains taxes will help the little guy get ahead while a higher death tax will diminish the advantage of being born in the "lucky sperm club". But low taxes all across the board is preferred.
You can own your own capital, but that is different from capital gains;
as for cooperative control, that is only the case for capital that multiple people use.
If more than one person lives in a house, more than one person owns it. If more than one person uses a road, more than one person owns it.
It's common sense that you shouldn't be able to own capital you don't operate, and without capital gains (which has nothing to do with the creation of labor) people would own things for their function, not to control other people's lives and their labor.
Congratulations OP for successfully dragging everyone through a 33 page conversation about, umm, nothing
You either lack basic understanding of history and how human society functions today, or just trolling. I can't tell.
He's an anarchist who fundamentally wants to restrict and control what other people do with their lives. In one breath he will not like what someone else does and try to control their actions, in the next breath he will say he advocates for 'freedom'.
He, as an anarchist wants to reject any institutions (but only as he defines an institution). His co-op idea is OK. Private ownership as it's defined in modern times is not.
Don't try to get a logical reason behind the philosophy. Anarchists know what they propose is not realistic, and can never happen in the real world. It's a fun intellectual exercise that bored, middle class kids spend time debating online. Everyone knows it is simply silly and would be destructive if implemented in the real world.
And you still haven’t tried to understand a single one of my posts.
I agree with anarchists on a lot, but that is not the scope of what I’m talking about.
Private property is a modern state invention, without state enforcement it could not exist. If people are limited to what they can consume and store, they would be forced to work together cooperatively as equals.
I don’t want to stop you from doing anything that is within your abilities, buying stocks and commodities are not things you do on your capacity, but models that are available to you with prescribed state force.
Without that you wouldn’t have it, just like plantation farmers wouldn’t have slaves without the slave trade.
Promoting cooperative economics is something that exists today and should continue to be promoted, not some impossibility you are not allowed to discuss.
What if I want to wander the country with my car and trailer in retirement? Absent the returns from my investmetns, I would be stuck where I am, with no hope of going anywhere else.
Let's say I have some cash, and Bill Gates needs some money to finish his great new product. I trade some cash for a piece of Bill's company, and it becomes a great success. According to your theory, I don't deserve any return on my capital, even though it made great things possible. That's lazy thinking, and unrealistic.
There still has to be a means to trade my labor for a medium that I can use to get stuff from other parts of the economy. We can't all live in little cooperatives.
1. Pricing for transportation would no longer be based on the profit motive (and hopefully be free) meaning travel is accessible to everyone
2. No, cash does not make cash, your logic is how wealth gets concentrated; people with money have the freedom to make more in this system you support. Soon the people controlling the market are the people with the most money.
3. You can of course, but that wouldn’t exist on the corporate scale.
Congratulations OP for successfully dragging everyone through a 33 page conversation about, umm, nothing
You either lack basic understanding of history and how human society functions today, or just trolling. I can't tell.
Why, your preconceived notions aren’t facts.
For thousands of years humans operated based on personal property and pooling together resources.
This is the craziest thread ... I’ve ever read .., the OP states numerous blatant falsehoods ( eg: private property is an invention of the modern state, humans lived co-operatively together in harmony without private property for “thousands of years”) has no understanding of basic (post stone Age) economics or 14000 years of human behaviour since the first little villages sprung up along the Euphrates.
And everyone wants to argue with him like he is presenting rationally arguable ideas.
All I will say is it’s pointless trying to tell someone like this that they are wrong because they are incapable of rational balance in determining facts.
No amount of facts in the world can defeat the voices in their head.
It’s also possible ( highly possible given the OP’s posting history ) that they are simply a troll
A capital gains tax at 90% would collapse the United States economy, which would then collapse the world economy, and basically result in the starvation, death, and disruption of hundreds of millions or billions of people. Ironically, the wealthy that are so despised by the OP would be the ones most capable of finding a way out of the country and into a safe haven where their wealth would be protected.
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