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Old 12-06-2019, 03:35 PM
 
Location: Chandler, AZ
2,717 posts, read 1,378,536 times
Reputation: 6467

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Quote:
Originally Posted by in_newengland View Post
But someone's got to do the low paying jobs, the service jobs, the jobs that help people.
Yup. And?

Quote:
We could use a lot more social workers and maybe that would straighten out the welfare mess with the generations who think they are entitled.
But we can't just wave a wand and have more social workers. They have to be paid for. The money to pay them has to come from somewhere. Where? Cut other government programs? Or just have the taxpayers pay more? How much more? What happens when we reach that arbitrary limit and still don't have enough of whatever?

Quote:
Also child protection workers--there never seem to be enough and then we hear of children dying because there was no follow up by child protection, then the governor promises more funding for child protection, and rinse, repeat.
CPS isn't a problem because of "lack of money"... it's a problem because it's a government agency, staffed with people with lifetime sinecures. People who, no matter how noble and well-intentioned they are or were once, get up in the morning and put on their pants one leg at a time like the rest of us. People who have mortgages and kids and worries and who want vacations and new cars and retirement. They are not noble, selfless, self-sacrificing heroes... they're doing it for a paycheck, and they want bigger paychecks, and they make mistakes, and they get burned out or sloppy or overworked. The answer isn't more of them... the answer is less caseloads.

Quote:
But even though their work is very important, they are very underpaid. So you can see where some of that resentment comes from.
Who doesn't believe they're underpaid? Why, when they're resentful about their lack of pay, is the answer to just give them more? Why isn't it on them to switch careers? If we really run out of <insert low-paid hero here>, then we can talk about paying more. But what happens if we pay everyone more just because they want more? Where does that money come from? What happens to prices when you pump up the money supply like that?

Quote:
Not everyone wants to be, is cut out to be, or should be an entrepreneur. Plenty of people work just as hard, or even harder, and for much less money. That's the reason for the resentment.
Yup. That's the human condition. Again... and?

Quote:
Too much of a gap between rich and poor.

People are starting to realize the enormous gap between the super rich and the working poor. Hence, expressions like, "They have no right to be so rich" and "It's not fair." The people at the top do make the rules and they selfishly make the rules to suit themselves, not for the good of their fellow man.
What does that mean? "Too much of a gap"? Let's quantify it. If I make $50K and look at someone else who makes $250K, I can say, "Wow, there's a gap!" Now they bump to $500K. OH MY GOD, THAT"S TOO BIG OF A GAP!!! But how am I any worse off? Talk of "gaps" is simply greed and envy being expressed.

I don't worry about what someone else has. I worry about what I need to do to earn and save more. We need more people doing that, not more people looking to tear others down to satisfy a vicious little schadenfreude inside of them.
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Old 12-06-2019, 03:49 PM
 
6,155 posts, read 7,029,518 times
Reputation: 15959
[quote=jnojr;56801848]


I understand what you are trying to say, but the chart you included is mislabeled.


What you want to show is the tax rate BEFORE adjustments, and the total tax paid as a percent of income, which is the argument I was making: The wealthy make the rules, which include those pesky adjustments.


Thanks.


And, BTW, I agree with you on the last paragraph, but once again, who provides those creature comforts that the less able get sucked into buying? Yup.....the wealthy. And before you say yes, but they don't have excess earnings at the corporate level, are the guys in the E suite really worth seven figures a year, plus options and benefits?
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Old 12-06-2019, 04:40 PM
Status: "Rejection is one thing but rejection from a fool is cruel" (set 12 days ago)
 
Location: Boulder, CO
1,170 posts, read 306,592 times
Reputation: 2057
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
"If you're not liberal when you're young, you have no heart. If you're not conservative when you're old, you have no brain".

If she gets mugged once or twice, next time she'll come to visit wearing a bright red MAGA hat !
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Old 12-06-2019, 04:44 PM
Status: "Rejection is one thing but rejection from a fool is cruel" (set 12 days ago)
 
Location: Boulder, CO
1,170 posts, read 306,592 times
Reputation: 2057
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
That's just absurd. She's morphing from a low information idealog even zealot into a more rounded and experienced person.

Six months ago: "Tax the rich ! The rich need to pay more !"


After a few paychecks: "What? You mean now I *am* the rich ?"
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Old 12-06-2019, 05:00 PM
 
Location: Chandler, AZ
2,717 posts, read 1,378,536 times
Reputation: 6467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Bear View Post

I understand what you are trying to say, but the chart you included is mislabeled.
"Mislabeled", how? I understand that what it depicts isn't what you wanted to see, but figures don't lie.. the top 1% of income earners pays 38% of all of the actual dollars flowing into the Treasury from income taxes. No amount of tap-dancing changes that fact.

Quote:
What you want to show is the tax rate BEFORE adjustments, and the total tax paid as a percent of income, which is the argument I was making: The wealthy make the rules, which include those pesky adjustments.
Why? What is the significance of "total tax paid as a percentage of income" to you?

If one person makes $100K and pays 10%, is that more money than someone else who makes $1 million and pays 5%?
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Old 12-06-2019, 05:09 PM
 
19,717 posts, read 14,352,073 times
Reputation: 15173
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnojr View Post

Why? What is the significance of "total tax paid as a percentage of income" to you?

If one person makes $100K and pays 10%, is that more money than someone else who makes $1 million and pays 5%?
Would you be okay with a system where a 100k earner paid 10% or 10k and a 1mm earner paid 15k or 1.5%? After all 15k is more than 10k
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Old 12-06-2019, 05:35 PM
 
Location: Silicon Valley
4,075 posts, read 1,858,657 times
Reputation: 6831
I had a very good and old friend who I went to university with and we lived in the same dorm a couple of years. We were pretty close. She was a granola girl from the word go. Cared passionately about the environment, equality, rights etc. Hard left. It drove passion in her music, but she never got her break in the biz, and the opera houses are without her voice today.


What she did do is go back to school and become an engineer. She got a job offer too good to turn down. Granola girl was going to (at the time) evil empire #1 Exxon. She fought tears when we brought some Peeps Easter candies and drizzled them with some dipping chocolate and put them on top of her farewell for now cake to tell her congrats.


Fast forward and she now realizes that yes, there's good and bad in the oil industry....but realistically they've got a lot of smart people making things better....and yes there needs to be a smart amount of pressure on the industry, but the solutions come from the businesses themselves. She came out here as theirs a refining region nearby to look to live. Her husband has family in the area. I said I'd swing by. I was running a tad late, but came up and saw her. I said, hey I'm sorry if I missed the conversations on the weather, keto diets and people's awesome pets. She just burst out laughing. She said...I can't believe I'm saying it, but this place is too hard left for me to live in.



She hasn't changed. Don't get me wrong. She still believes in the environment. She still believes in equality. She still believes and actively seeks justice, and her side band is awesome. But at the end of the day, proposing things that are not economic realities is just a waste of everyone's time, and one side accusing the other of only wanting to talk about things that are within the scope of reality as not addressing the problem....isn't helping.
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Old 12-06-2019, 05:41 PM
 
Location: NC
2,385 posts, read 1,339,137 times
Reputation: 5989
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADogNamedSam View Post
Six months ago: "Tax the rich ! The rich need to pay more !"


After a few paychecks: "What? You mean now I *am* the rich ?"
Cute how people think newly employed people are stupid. I was never "rich" but I made a very good living in sales. I never had an issue with my taxes going towards what they were going towards, even before I was making such a good living. Most of us were smart, even way back when we were young.

I think the OP is projecting their beliefs. The niece made one comment in passing and suddenly she's "enlightened", by the OP's observation. It might have even been a joke. Imagine that!
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Old 12-06-2019, 05:42 PM
 
Location: too far from the sea
20,967 posts, read 19,914,982 times
Reputation: 36244
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnojr View Post
Yup. And?



But we can't just wave a wand and have more social workers. They have to be paid for. The money to pay them has to come from somewhere. Where? Cut other government programs? Or just have the taxpayers pay more? How much more? What happens when we reach that arbitrary limit and still don't have enough of whatever?



CPS isn't a problem because of "lack of money"... it's a problem because it's a government agency, staffed with people with lifetime sinecures. People who, no matter how noble and well-intentioned they are or were once, get up in the morning and put on their pants one leg at a time like the rest of us. People who have mortgages and kids and worries and who want vacations and new cars and retirement. They are not noble, selfless, self-sacrificing heroes... they're doing it for a paycheck, and they want bigger paychecks, and they make mistakes, and they get burned out or sloppy or overworked. The answer isn't more of them... the answer is less caseloads.



Who doesn't believe they're underpaid? Why, when they're resentful about their lack of pay, is the answer to just give them more? Why isn't it on them to switch careers? If we really run out of <insert low-paid hero here>, then we can talk about paying more. But what happens if we pay everyone more just because they want more? Where does that money come from? What happens to prices when you pump up the money supply like that?



Yup. That's the human condition. Again... and?



What does that mean? "Too much of a gap"? Let's quantify it. If I make $50K and look at someone else who makes $250K, I can say, "Wow, there's a gap!" Now they bump to $500K. OH MY GOD, THAT"S TOO BIG OF A GAP!!! But how am I any worse off? Talk of "gaps" is simply greed and envy being expressed.

I don't worry about what someone else has. I worry about what I need to do to earn and save more. We need more people doing that, not more people looking to tear others down to satisfy a vicious little schadenfreude inside of them.
You missed the point. It shouldn't be all about people competing and climbing over each other's backs to get to the top and make more money. It shouldn't be all about money anyway.

The overburdened child protective workers? Why are they overburdened? Because there are not enough of them. If we paid them more, there would be more of an incentive to work in that much needed field. There are plenty of government programs that could be cut if we need to cut them so we can pay to protect children. Programs like rich state universities that are full of corruption from bottom to top, corrupt politicians with their "deals" and backhanders. Get the money from somewhere and PAY those who work for non profits that actually help people.

Social workers helping the elderly and disabled, scrutinizing and weeding out the welfare system. PAY them and maybe we can get something done. This is just as important as someone in corporate America becoming a billionaire. THAT is a wealth gap and THAT is as old as the feudal system of serfs who slaved for their masters or the unbelievable inequalities that caused the French Revolution. It's not all about money for ME ME ME--it's also about the well being of the country and everyone in it.

Great inequality breeds great resentment and resentment breeds trouble. Not only that, but the non profit workers are performing important work that will benefit everyone in the long run, even if only in a subtle way. Some of the billionaires are seeing this and have become philanthropists. But it's probably better if the government also gets involved and sees to it that the helping type people get paid what they're worth.
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Old 12-06-2019, 05:55 PM
Status: "beach bum" (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: NMB, SC
2,165 posts, read 542,212 times
Reputation: 3460
A lot of idealism of youth comes crashing down once they get a full time job and see how much is taken out in taxes.
It's a light bulb moment for many.
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