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Old 12-23-2019, 11:56 AM
 
Location: nw burbs
130 posts, read 55,759 times
Reputation: 132

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Quote:
Originally Posted by athena53 View Post
I used to withhold for 10 throughout the year even though I was a single mother. I was in NJ and had a big mortgage and high property taxes (which were all deductible back then). I nearly always got a refund.
Hey, how did you do that? How 10 could have been claimed without proofs of people?
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Old 12-23-2019, 11:57 AM
 
Location: Silicon Valley
4,075 posts, read 1,858,657 times
Reputation: 6831
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawk55732 View Post
The amount of money the person would pay in taxes the end would be the same in the end whether they pay it while filing taxes or throughout the year. I can understand you saying it may make a little more work for the company, however, you haven't explained how its gaming the system.
If it were simply gaming the government, I wouldn't care. That's on you. However, the company has laws it has to follow. Dude X says he has 15 kids. By law we are not allowed to ask about kids, so we don't. We received our W-4 and withheld as required by law. If later things turn out wrong, the company isn't liable regardless of whether or not it was the correct thing to do.

Form W-4's do change. People adopt, have kids, lose/gain custody, kids become independent, kids die. But, when W-4's starting jumping up and down, intra year and consistently, then the company picks up liability again because it's allowing a gaming of the system. Those employees have taken a non-issue, for the company, and made it a business risk to the company and spent company resources in the process.

You do not want your management ranks doing stuff like that. You need them finding ways that yes, we are subject to statutory, tax, environmental, quality and customer specification compliance. It surrounds us. How are you going to slash the red tape successfully, not make matters worse and at some point it catches up and then we're all facing a big mess.

Some people just don't get that. Someone constantly switching back and forth on their W-4 would be a good early indicator of that. Someone going further and spreading misinformation around the factory is definitely not who you want to put in charge of things.

Right or wrong, people like me exist. Do as you will.
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Old 12-23-2019, 12:09 PM
 
1,960 posts, read 1,033,604 times
Reputation: 2677
Quote:
Originally Posted by artillery77 View Post
If it were simply gaming the government, I wouldn't care. That's on you. However, the company has laws it has to follow. Dude X says he has 15 kids. By law we are not allowed to ask about kids, so we don't. We received our W-4 and withheld as required by law. If later things turn out wrong, the company isn't liable regardless of whether or not it was the correct thing to do.

Form W-4's do change. People adopt, have kids, lose/gain custody, kids become independent, kids die. But, when W-4's starting jumping up and down, intra year and consistently, then the company picks up liability again because it's allowing a gaming of the system. Those employees have taken a non-issue, for the company, and made it a business risk to the company and spent company resources in the process.

You do not want your management ranks doing stuff like that. You need them finding ways that yes, we are subject to statutory, tax, environmental, quality and customer specification compliance. It surrounds us. How are you going to slash the red tape successfully, not make matters worse and at some point it catches up and then we're all facing a big mess.

Some people just don't get that. Someone constantly switching back and forth on their W-4 would be a good early indicator of that. Someone going further and spreading misinformation around the factory is definitely not who you want to put in charge of things.

Right or wrong, people like me exist. Do as you will.
Can you please show which law states that you cant claim more dependents then you actually have? Id like to look into that. Thank you.
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Old 12-23-2019, 12:30 PM
 
2,119 posts, read 971,663 times
Reputation: 3799
Quote:
Originally Posted by 51squirrel33 View Post
Hey, how did you do that? How 10 could have been claimed without proofs of people?
The number of claimed deductions on a W-4 has nothing to do with the number of dependents you can claim on the annual 1040 you file with the IRS. I changed mine from 3 to 10 one year to get my total withholding for the year to the correct amount. I was overwithheld over the first 8 months, and by changing to 10, ended up at the right amount.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hawk55732 View Post
Can you please show which law states that you cant claim more dependents then you actually have? Id like to look into that. Thank you.
You can claim however many dependents you want on a W-4, as long as you aren't significantly under withheld for the year. Claiming more dependents on the 1040 would be a criminal offense.
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Old 12-23-2019, 12:51 PM
 
9,326 posts, read 5,449,510 times
Reputation: 10674
Quote:
Originally Posted by artillery77 View Post
If it were simply gaming the government, I wouldn't care. That's on you. However, the company has laws it has to follow. Dude X says he has 15 kids. By law we are not allowed to ask about kids, so we don't. We received our W-4 and withheld as required by law. If later things turn out wrong, the company isn't liable regardless of whether or not it was the correct thing to do.

Form W-4's do change. People adopt, have kids, lose/gain custody, kids become independent, kids die. But, when W-4's starting jumping up and down, intra year and consistently, then the company picks up liability again because it's allowing a gaming of the system. Those employees have taken a non-issue, for the company, and made it a business risk to the company and spent company resources in the process.

You do not want your management ranks doing stuff like that. You need them finding ways that yes, we are subject to statutory, tax, environmental, quality and customer specification compliance. It surrounds us. How are you going to slash the red tape successfully, not make matters worse and at some point it catches up and then we're all facing a big mess.

Some people just don't get that. Someone constantly switching back and forth on their W-4 would be a good early indicator of that. Someone going further and spreading misinformation around the factory is definitely not who you want to put in charge of things.

Right or wrong, people like me exist. Do as you will.
Nonsense. No company is liable for what an employee chooses to claim on their W-4.

Your recommendation that someone be passed over for promotion because they changed their W-4 is ridiculous and unethical.
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Old 12-23-2019, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Silicon Valley
4,075 posts, read 1,858,657 times
Reputation: 6831
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawk55732 View Post
Can you please show which law states that you cant claim more dependents then you actually have? Id like to look into that. Thank you.
Can you show me where my pain point has ever been someone claiming too much? The OP as well as my situation, are instances where someone is repeatedly changing their statements in an obvious fashion. It's the back and forth that causes the pain. How robust of a system is needed to store company W-4's in order to defend payroll withholding decisions made for each period of time? Because, and this is important, at some point the auditor can simply declare that we're collecting W-4s that we know are incorrect and assess us fines on the entire payroll stating everyone should be withheld at 0 exemptions. How fair is it for a worker that has done nothing wrong that suddenly must pay greater withholding because HR let the company run wild?

That is the pain point.

As for the law itself, here's what's on the form (emphasis added). I'm not an attorney.

Privacy Act and Paperwork Reduction Act Notice. We ask for the information on this form to carry out the Internal Revenue laws of the United States. Internal Revenue Code sections 3402(f)(2) and 6109 and their regulations require you to provide this information; your employer uses it to determine your federal income tax withholding. Failure to provide a properly completed form will result in your being treated as a single person with no other entries on the form; providing fraudulent information may subject you to penalties.


Again...I don't care if you put yourself in trouble with the IRS. Your average American is an idiot about income tax that can't even understand the connection between withholding, tax and refund. I'm certainly not going to step in an fill that gap. However, if we get a wage garnishment order, we'll follow it.

It's when your game puts the business and others at unnecessary risk that it's problematic. My only advice is to switch your W-4 when it is merited and not to use it as a rudder to maximize cash flow. Follow it or don't follow it, but don't expect business to fight city hall.
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Old 12-23-2019, 12:55 PM
 
1,960 posts, read 1,033,604 times
Reputation: 2677
Quote:
Originally Posted by artillery77 View Post
Can you show me where my pain point has ever been someone claiming too much? The OP as well as my situation, are instances where someone is repeatedly changing their statements in an obvious fashion. It's the back and forth that causes the pain. How robust of a system is needed to store company W-4's in order to defend payroll withholding decisions made for each period of time? Because, and this is important, at some point the auditor can simply declare that we're collecting W-4s that we know are incorrect and assess us fines on the entire payroll stating everyone should be withheld at 0 exemptions. How fair is it for a worker that has done nothing wrong that suddenly must pay greater withholding because HR let the company run wild?

That is the pain point.

As for the law itself, here's what's on the form (emphasis added). I'm not an attorney.

Privacy Act and Paperwork Reduction Act Notice. We ask for the information on this form to carry out the Internal Revenue laws of the United States. Internal Revenue Code sections 3402(f)(2) and 6109 and their regulations require you to provide this information; your employer uses it to determine your federal income tax withholding. Failure to provide a properly completed form will result in your being treated as a single person with no other entries on the form; providing fraudulent information may subject you to penalties.


Again...I don't care if you put yourself in trouble with the IRS. Your average American is an idiot about income tax that can't even understand the connection between withholding, tax and refund. I'm certainly not going to step in an fill that gap. However, if we get a wage garnishment order, we'll follow it.

It's when your game puts the business and others at unnecessary risk that it's problematic. My only advice is to switch your W-4 when it is merited and not to use it as a rudder to maximize cash flow. Follow it or don't follow it.
Ill look into it when I get a chance. Doesn't really make sense though, the government will get the same amount no matter how many you claim.
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Old 12-23-2019, 01:00 PM
 
9,326 posts, read 5,449,510 times
Reputation: 10674
Quote:
Originally Posted by artillery77 View Post

As for the law itself, here's what's on the form (emphasis added). I'm not an attorney.

Privacy Act and Paperwork Reduction Act Notice. We ask for the information on this form to carry out the Internal Revenue laws of the United States. Internal Revenue Code sections 3402(f)(2) and 6109 and their regulations require you to provide this information; your employer uses it to determine your federal income tax withholding. Failure to provide a properly completed form will result in your being treated as a single person with no other entries on the form; providing fraudulent information may subject you to penalties.
It is the employee who signs the form, not the employer. It is the employee who may be subject to penalties, not the employer.

My goodness.
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Old 12-23-2019, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Silicon Valley
4,075 posts, read 1,858,657 times
Reputation: 6831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petunia 100 View Post
It is the employee who signs the form, not the employer. It is the employee who may be subject to penalties, not the employer.

My goodness.
The Department of Labor and your State audit companies all of the time for payroll compliance. They know if penalties were $500, nobody would care, so they make their penalties quite large, and they backdate to the time of the filing and assess payday loan penalty interest rates. Considering these audits can occur years after the fact, the balance becomes quite substantial as an entire payroll will fail, and of course they will check the following payrolls.

In plain English---

If a business doesn't make payroll tax payments on time, the IRS can impose a penalty for these unpaid taxes. Penalty can be imposed by the IRS for:

Willful failure to collect tax,
Willful failure to account for and pay tax, or
Willful attempt in any manner to evade or defeat the tax or the payment thereof.

Note the use of the term "willful," which is defined by the IRS as "intentional, deliberate, voluntary, and knowing, as distinguished from accidental. "Willfulness" is the attitude of a responsible person who with free will or choice either intentionally disregards the law or is plainly indifferent to its requirements." In some cases, a reckless disregard of obvious facts is enough show willfulness.
---
New hire claims 7 dependents but doesn't have any. Accidental. (Employee Problem)
Existing hire claims 7, then 5, then 8, then 4. Willful. (Company Problem)

Some people can't or won't understand or accept that there are regulations surrounding payroll that must be followed. Further they can't distinguish when their own affairs negatively impact the company. That's a valid concern for an open management position.
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Old 12-23-2019, 01:49 PM
 
9,326 posts, read 5,449,510 times
Reputation: 10674
Quote:
Originally Posted by artillery77 View Post
The Department of Labor and your State audit companies all of the time for payroll compliance. They know if penalties were $500, nobody would care, so they make their penalties quite large, and they backdate to the time of the filing and assess payday loan penalty interest rates. Considering these audits can occur years after the fact, the balance becomes quite substantial as an entire payroll will fail, and of course they will check the following payrolls.

In plain English---

If a business doesn't make payroll tax payments on time, the IRS can impose a penalty for these unpaid taxes. Penalty can be imposed by the IRS for:

Willful failure to collect tax,
Willful failure to account for and pay tax, or
Willful attempt in any manner to evade or defeat the tax or the payment thereof.

Note the use of the term "willful," which is defined by the IRS as "intentional, deliberate, voluntary, and knowing, as distinguished from accidental. "Willfulness" is the attitude of a responsible person who with free will or choice either intentionally disregards the law or is plainly indifferent to its requirements." In some cases, a reckless disregard of obvious facts is enough show willfulness.
---
New hire claims 7 dependents but doesn't have any. Accidental. (Employee Problem)
Existing hire claims 7, then 5, then 8, then 4. Willful. (Company Problem)

Some people can't or won't understand or accept that there are regulations surrounding payroll that must be followed. Further they can't distinguish when their own affairs negatively impact the company. That's a valid concern for an open management position.
An employer is responsible to make timely payroll tax deposits, yes. Certainly. This is an entirely different matter than being responsible for what an employee chooses to claim on their W-4.

Sorry, you are just wrong on this topic.
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